Train Times Model Shop Announces new RTR Wagon! LB&SCR D.1433 in 00 Gauge - Now Oak Hill Works

[Oldddudders]

12 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

 With open wagons, they would probably be laden in one direction and empty in the other (for foreign wagons pre-1917) or carrying different loads in each direction (all open wagons post-1917). 

Not true everywhere since 1917. In my time Southern Region was under constant pressure to get empties back north of the Thames, with BRHQ setting daily pool targets for specified wagon types. Control colleagues spent time organising specials to Willesden with 50 empty minerals. And that BT Film Train Time makes it clear that even in 1951 that was the case. It must also have happened prior to 1948, in a less imperative way, perhaps through RCH. After all, Southern didn't have any other use for the huge number of coal wagons arriving daily, nor infinite space, and we all understand the collieries needed the empties to maintain production without putting the stuff to ground. 

 

Modelling some parts of the country - and many branch lines - there would be an imbalance of inward and outward loads, and so plenty of empties on a train are more than plausible. 

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Oldddudders said:

Not true everywhere since 1917. In my time Southern Region was under constant pressure to get empties back north of the Thames, with BRHQ setting daily pool targets for specified wagon types. Control colleagues spent time organising specials to Willesden with 50 empty minerals. And that BT Film Train Time makes it clear that even in 1951 that was the case. It must also have happened prior to 1948, in a less imperative way, perhaps through RCH. After all, Southern didn't have any other use for the huge number of coal wagons arriving daily, nor infinite space, and we all understand the collieries needed the empties to maintain production without putting the stuff to ground. 

 

Modelling some parts of the country - and many branch lines - there would be an imbalance of inward and outward loads, and so plenty of empties on a train are more than plausible. 

 

London and the south generally was by a considerable margin a net importer of goods - not just coal. Getting the empties home would have been just as important pre-nationalisation and certainly pre-war, when many - most? - would have been PO coal wagons for which there was never going to be a back-load.

[Dungrange]

45 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Modelling some parts of the country - and many branch lines - there would be an imbalance of inward and outward loads, and so plenty of empties on a train are more than plausible. 

 

True, but post-1917 they would only have been empty in one direction, so there is still a need for a load in one direction and it will need to be removable if you want the same wagon to operate in both directions, which I suspect is an off-putting factor when it comes to wagon purchases.

 

46 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Not true everywhere since 1917. In my time Southern Region was under constant pressure to get empties back north of the Thames, with BRHQ setting daily pool targets for specified wagon types. Control colleagues spent time organising specials to Willesden with 50 empty minerals. And that BT Film Train Time makes it clear that even in 1951 that was the case. It must also have happened prior to 1948, in a less imperative way, perhaps through RCH. After all, Southern didn't have any other use for the huge number of coal wagons arriving daily, nor infinite space, and we all understand the collieries needed the empties to maintain production without putting the stuff to ground. 

 

True, but I was primarily thinking about railway owned open merchandise wagons that convey a variety of goods.  Private Owner coal wagons were not part of the 1917 Railway Clearing House (RHC) Common User scheme, so throughout the pre-WW2 period, these would have had to be returned promptly to the collieries and would have been empty for their return trip.  Post WW2, when BR 16T mineral wagons had replaced the RHC wooden-bodied PO wagons on coal traffic, I would expect operation to be the same as in earlier times, which is what you are suggesting.  If there is no return load (such as for cold), then the wagons will have to return empty.

 

However, the impact of any imbalance in traffic that could have been conveyed in general railway owned open wagons would have greatly reduced post-1917.  My own research interest at the moment is the Wisbech and Upwell (W&U) Tramway, where I understand that there was more outbound than inbound traffic, particularly during the summer months.  Pre-WW1, there would have been empty GER open wagons travelling between Wisbech and Upwell (to be loaded with agricultural produce) and empty foreign wagons between Upwell and Wisbech (returning empty to their home territory having delivered imported products).  However, post-1917, I think all of the wagons from foreign company territory would have been loaded in both directions and the number of unloaded open GER wagons would have reduced substantially.  Yes, there would still have been some empty wagons, but the numbers would have been dramatically reduced compared to pre-WW1.  What that means for me (and my interest in the post-war pre-grouping period) is a requirement for open wagons with two different loads.  Thankfully the W&U Tramway exported a lot of produce in covered vans and therefore I can make use of vans from a variety of companies, including the LB&SCR, albeit there were far fewer LB&SCR vans than many of the other companies, so I only need one of these Diagram 1433 wagons.  The benefit is that no-one will know whether it is representing an empty or loaded consignment.

[Dungrange]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

That's a very interesting observation, which shows Rapido's perspicacity in choice of the LMS D1666 as their open of the year. These pre-grouping releases are really about enabling the grouping-period or early BR modeller to build up a realistic wagon stock; anything for the pre-grouping modeller is simply a bonus.

 

At least one of Rapido's designers is a pre-grouping era modeller, and their boxes do state "Rapido is owned and operated by railway modellers who just want all this neat stuff for their layouts".  As such, I understand that pre-grouping era wagons are suggested at ideas workshops.

 

However, the commercial reality is that there are significantly more BR era modellers than there are modellers who are interested in the pre-grouping period.  For that reason, most manufacturers are unlikely to choose a prototype from 1860, where all wagons were gone by the 1920s.  That seems to be the market for limited run kits and perhaps 3D printed models.  However, if you can identify pre-grouping era prototypes that survived into BR (even in limited numbers), then suddenly you have something that is potentially commercially viable.  Perhaps even more so if there is a preserved example.  Just look at this thread and see how many people have indicated that they're interested in the Isle of Wight versions.  Obviously Train Times wouldn't be giving us a breakdown of sales of this wagon, but I suspect that they will sell more of the later period wagons than the early period wagons.

[Dungrange]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

More like 14% - at least that's the figure I remember working out from the same Year Book for the LNWR and GWR. The Midland had been seriously lagging behind around 1900 but with a major bout of van-building it had got up from 1.8% of stock in 1898 to 8.2% by 1905 and 10.4% by 1921. But this relatively low fraction has to be understood in relation to the fact that the Midland was carrying a much greater proportion of its mineral traffic in its own wagons than were those other two companies, so by 1921 vans as a proportion of merchandise wagons might well be at least equal if not higher than that on the other lines.

 

Yes, it varies by company as well as over time and is a function of the makeup of the entire wagon fleet of each company - for the Great Eastern Railway just over 19% of stock was covered vans in 1920.  However, the GER had very few mineral wagons (just 175 as at 31 December 1921).  That was significantly less than most of the other large pre-grouping railway companies (both proportionately and as an absolute number).  In trying to consider the proportion of various foreign company wagons that I want for my layout, I've found that it's necessary not just to look at the total wagon stock of each company but also the breakdown of their fleet.  For example, the NER had more wagons than the GWR (123,494 versus 88,910), but the GWR had more of the types of wagons that would have been found in East Anglia (57,266 open wagons versus 37,785 on the NER and 13,942 covered vans versus 9,864 on the NER).  Therefore the impact of the Common User arrangements would probably have resulted in more GWR wagons in East Anglia than NER wagons in my period of interest.  LB&SCR comes 16th on my list of railway companies stock that I want.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

In trying to consider the proportion of various foreign company wagons that I want for my layout, I've found that it's necessary not just to look at the total wagon stock of each company but also the breakdown of their fleet.  

 

I absolutely like this approach.

 

1 hour ago, Dungrange said:

LB&SCR comes 16th on my list of railway companies stock that I want.

 

But of course the laws of probability say that you can justifiably have one, whether your total fleet is 16 or 160 wagons.

 

There's a photo taken at Barmouth c. 1922, teeming with Maunsell SECR round-ended opens.

[Dungrange]

9 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

But of course the laws of probability say that you can justifiably have one, whether your total fleet is 16 or 160 wagons.

 

That's why I will get one of these.  However, my best estimate at the moment is that perhaps 0.17% of my wagon fleet should be LB&SCR covered goods wagons.  As I don't intend buying anything like 600 wagons, I don't really need any LB&SCR covered vans.  As such, if this model wasn't being produced, I wouldn't care.

 

However, I reckon that somewhere closer to 8.28% of my fleet should be Midland Railway general merchandise open wagons.  Therefore, if no-one announces any ready-to-run versions in the next 12-months, I'll have to build kits, as these are something that I can't realistically do without and even if someone does announce a ready-to-run model, I probably still need to build a few kits to allow me to represent more than one diagram of Midland Railway open wagon (probably starting with the ones that I think a ready-to-run manufacturer is less likely to go for).

[BlueLightning]

An update!

 

Train Times has been sold! It's no longer mine (or the other owners) The new owner was not interested in this project, so instead I have kept the rights to this for myself, and the vans will now be produced under my Oak Hill Works brand, I have the CAD work for the second batch of samples now, and will be preparing these over Christmas, so expect an update with new samples early in the new year!

 

Gary

[Wilton 34041]

Good for you Gary. I hope you're happy with the sale and I wish you all the best with your projects, I'll certainly be watching to see what I can buy to support you in this.

Just a thought, does this mean you won't be in the shop anymore?

Phil B.

[BlueLightning]

2 hours ago, Wilton 34041 said:

Just a thought, does this mean you won't be in the shop anymore?

 

Thank you! Unfortunately it does mean no more of me in the shop, which until recently was not the plan, but sometimes an offer comes along that you can't refuse!

 

Gary

[phil gollin]

.

 

I would remind people that London were the busiest docks by far in the steam age.  Of course the docks north of the River  were larger than the ones to the South.

 

In addition London was the busiest manufacturing area in the UK.

 

All those goods had to go somewhere  -  Often to the Southern area.

 

Coal will mostly be in "foreign" wagons,  but there was the East Kent coalfield.

 

.

[Deeps]

I certainly intend to support this venture, with an anticipated order of at least four.

[03060]

I've only just come across this project and thread but having just bought 3 IOW Terriers in the last week with a couple more in the pipeline I'm on the lookout for something prototypical for them to haul and shunt .... I'll be looking forward to the order book opening if it hasn't already.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[BlueLightning]

12 hours ago, 03060 said:

I've only just come across this project and thread but having just bought 3 IOW Terriers in the last week with a couple more in the pipeline I'm on the lookout for something prototypical for them to haul and shunt .... I'll be looking forward to the order book opening if it hasn't already.

 

Regards,

Ian.

 

No order book yet, I had the second samples, there was an issue to sort out, so I never sent them to be decorated, am currently awaiting 3rd samples, it's only a small change to be made, so I am confident that these will be the final version of the van and I will be able to get these decorated, and open the order book, a move I don't want to make until I know I am happy with the end product.

 

Gary