Lineside fencing on GWR metals - where was it and where wasn't it?

[bécasse]

Courtesy of the National Library of Scotland, the map below shows what the boundaries were in 1876 before the railway arrived. The property numbers (eg 5622) were the same before and after.

[Andy Keane]

56 minutes ago, bécasse said:

Courtesy of the National Library of Scotland, the map below shows what the boundaries were in 1876 before the railway arrived. The property numbers (eg 5622) were the same before and after.

That's really interesting. I don't know why, but I had never thought of looking at the map before the railway arrived! Comparison with later maps show for example that the 52/54 Godolphin Rd villa I am building was erected right up against the existing terrace, being squeezed in between that and the goods yard approach. But regarding the fence lines I can see that lot 5 1.567 remained unchanged and the Railway adopted its south-western edge as a boundary while lot 5622 was bisected by the new line as were 5620, 5663 and 11. So a tiny bit of 5622 remained, most became the station and a small amount was merged into 5623 increasing its size to 2.335 acres and a bit of 5620 ended up in 5621 which changed shape but not size, loosing about as much as it gained to the railway, while a large chunk of 5663 became railway land, with just 0.183 acres left as part of Station Road, presumably being placed in public ownership. Fascinating - I suppose all this would have been detailed in the Act setting up the original Helston Railway. 

Another interest is the old footpath that used to run to Parksledge Villa ended up being terminated on Station Road, with access then being via Godolphin road. But its original location is clearly what dictated the placement of the main station gates on Station Road.

 

PS - does anyone know what the solid line with dots on labelled CF means?

Edited April 2 by Andy Keane

[Cwmtwrch]

2 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

PS - does anyone know what the solid line with dots on labelled CF means?

The line is a boundary as elsewhere, the dots show the Municipal Boundary - see the access road to Gwealfolds and the road south. That's why the number series is different on each side.

 

[Cwmtwrch]

3 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Thus I plan to shorten the stone wall there and replace with a very short bit of GWR wire fence - this will look a little odd but I am working on the assumption that an old Cornish dry stone wall would not have satisfied the inspector as a boundary for the railway which was why wire fencing was used there.

It may have been a railway decision; maintenance and repair of dry stone walling requires specialist skills which railway personnel would probably not have, would take longer and would probably be more expensive. Also the railway would probably be in favour of standardisation unless there was a strong reason to do something different.

[Andy Keane]

I have now installed the walls, leaving the gaps for the wire fence runs. On the far side the further fence runs will start from the ends of the bridge parapet.

[Siberian Snooper]

Allow at least a couple of scale feet from the top edge of cuttings to allow for checking and maintenance of the fence, if the top has a sharp drop-off increase that to 3ft or more.

 

 

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Allow at least a couple of scale feet from the top edge of cuttings to allow for checking and maintenance of the fence, if the top has a sharp drop-off increase that to 3ft or more.

 

 

I think that may explain the gap on this side to the right - the maps show the fence line well in from the cutting top (about 15 scale feet). But the 1946 aerial photo below (and indeed the maps), show the fence much closer to the cutting edge on the far side of the road. I suppose three feet would be about two-thirds of the fence height and I may just get that much in, but it will be tight.

[Andy Keane]

This is my attempt at modelling the fence. Ratio 423 posts, 3D printed stretcher posts and easyline between them. As per the original the diagonal stretcher rails are at a slight angle to the run, so that they don't need drilling for all the wire runs.

 

This works well for runs where the fence is straight, or on  the outside of a curve as the tension in the line pulls it onto the posts. But I am not clear how the GWR did fence runs on the inside of a curve. As I understand it, the normal practice was that the wire was stapled to the posts on the non-GWR side of the run, so that any cattle pushing against it would not tend to pull the wire off the fence, but when you do that on an inside curve run, the fence tension itself tends to pull the line of the fence. So did the GWR staple to their side of the posts on such curves so that the line tension pulled the wire onto the posts or perhaps use a sequence of straight runs with more stretcher posts? I would be interested to see a photo of a run with its original stapling on an inside curve if anyone had one.

Andy

Edited April 9 by Andy Keane

[Cwmtwrch]

I've never studied the matter, but I think you may be making an invalid assumption. Iron or steel wire will contract or expand with changes in temperature, but the wires have tensioners at the ends [bolts through the end posts with loops to which the wires are attached, with nuts on the other side of the post], which is why the end posts have the diagonal supports. Provided the tensioners are suitably adjusted when the wires are installed there should not be too great a level of stress in the system within the normal temperature range, although the wire might sag a little in high temperatures. In extreme cases it would be possible to reduce the problem by using shorter runs, with more end posts.

[Andy Keane]

I guess I was thinking about a 90 turn. If you do up the bolts to tension the wires running around such a turn you either risk pulling the posts over or if the wire is stapled on the inside pulling it off the posts? But clearly it depends on how much tension you use!

 

Edited April 9 by Andy Keane

[Jeff Smith]

I must admit this was not a consideration I made.  I tried using the Ratio fence kit but had trouble using solvent to attach the wires to the posts.  I ended up making posts from square section styrene, drilled using a jig and threaded with brown cotton - I stiffened the end of the cotton with superglue to make threading easier.....

[Andy Keane]

I have also tried wire threading, though in my case using the Scale Model Scenery wooden posts. These work fine but its just not how wire fences are made - it is not practical in the real world to thread wires through posts on long fence lines - hence why they are stapled on and why the Ratio posts work that way. Below a short bit with easy line and GWR stretchers and below that a length of four wire I put on one of our club layouts again with SMS posts but that one with fishing line. The key thing in both cases being the line is elastic so the runs can be tensioned against the end stretcher posts, and also they are more forgiving of being knocked.

Edited April 9 by Andy Keane

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, true enough, a possible case of 'I know it's correct', I've done plenty of examples over the years, but at viewing distance you probably can't tell if the wires go behind the posts or through them!  Good work though!

[Cwmtwrch]

4 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

I guess I was thinking about a 90 turn. If you do up the bolts to tension the wires running around such a turn you either risk pulling the posts over or if the wire is stapled on the inside pulling it off the posts? But clearly it depends on how much tension you use!

I would expect both wire runs to end at the corner, each with separate end posts with no wire connection between them. As you say, anything else is going to cause problems. The same would apply to any change of direction at a corner, whatever the actual angle involved. Wire runs could be continuous through a very gradual curve running alongside a railway, where the curves are very large radius, but not at any form of abrupt change of direction at a corner.

[Wheatley]

On 02/04/2024 at 14:13, Andy Keane said:

PS - does anyone know what the solid line with dots on labelled CF means?

'Croft' apparently. No, me neither. (There's a glossary on the NLS site). 

 

With regard to ramps and slopes to/from bridges etc, where it would be awkward to fence them the boundary could be marked by cast iron boundary posts with the continuous railway fence running inside the boundary. There used to be some on an accommodation crossing near Appleby (S&C) where the railway owned the ramp up from the field to the crossing, but the fence line continued parallel to the track and the ramp was for all intents and purposes part of the adjoining field and grazed with it. They were iron 'MR' posts (bullhead rail with the ends forged flat) at the four corners of the ramp and the sort of thing which would do seriously expensive damage to a modern plough which I suspect is why there aren't many left. 

Edited April 9 by Wheatley

[Andy Keane]

18 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

I would expect both wire runs to end at the corner, each with separate end posts with no wire connection between them. As you say, anything else is going to cause problems. The same would apply to any change of direction at a corner, whatever the actual angle involved. Wire runs could be continuous through a very gradual curve running alongside a railway, where the curves are very large radius, but not at any form of abrupt change of direction at a corner.

The classic problem area I have is right at the far end of the line where the carriage shed sits on the top of a dead end embankment, see the solid line in the map below. In BR days there were concrete posts with threaded wires right around the 180 degrees of the end of the line - as its only a narrow embankment its a pretty sharp curve. But in GWR days I have no record except there must have been a wire fence. So what to do? I could do it as a rectangular box but this would not fit the map or the lie of the embankment. I could do it like the edges of an old threeppeny bit with short runs between a lot of stretchers but this seems excessive. Or perhaps here they actually did use holes in the posts and thread the line around? Hence my search for a better answer! Elsewhere the curves are indeed sufficiently gentle to allow the fence run to adapt to the bend with stapled wires.

[Wheatley]

The average radius at the bottom of that embankment is about 40 - 50 feet, more than do-able with post and wire following the boundary line at 6 foot intervals or more, with the odd bracing post at right angles. 

 

Do it as post and rail if it worries you. 

[Siberian Snooper]

I have surveyed approximately 6 miles of ex GW wire boundary fencing, after the straining post there are usually 24 wooden posts and then a vertical length of bridge rail to which the ends of adjacent wire runs are attached with eye bolts for tensioning and if memory serves me, and I don't guarantee that it does, there are 10 runs before another straining post. All wires are fixed to the outside of the posts. A length of wire is bent double like a staple and pushed through the hole in the post and then opened out to retain it.  The wires are not tensioned like guitar strings and have a bit of give in them.

 

 

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I have surveyed approximately 6 miles of ex GW wire boundary fencing, after the straining post there are usually 24 wooden posts and then a vertical length of bridge rail to which the ends of adjacent wire runs are attached with eye bolts for tensioning and if memory serves me, and I don't guarantee that it does, there are 10 runs before another straining post. All wires are fixed to the outside of the posts. A length of wire is bent double like a staple and pushed through the hole in the post and then opened out to retain it.  The wires are not tensioned like guitar strings and have a bit of give in them.

 

 

Thanks for this - really helpful. So to be clear these vertical lengths of bridge rail were just that - no diagonals, just posts with holes in the flanges to thread the eye bolts through? so Full straining post with diagonal, 24 wood, vertical bridge rail, 24 wood, vertical bridge rail, 24 wood etc., until at the other end when we get another set of 24 wood before the final full straining post with diagonal? So 240 odd posts between full straining posts (about 20 feet at 4mm scale)? No doubt reduced if there was some junction or big change of direction. And I guess on very long runs the double diagonal straining posts were used though I will not need them on my station boundary.

Andy

Edited April 9 by Andy Keane

[Siberian Snooper]

11 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

Thanks for this - really helpful. So to be clear these vertical lengths of bridge rail were just that - no diagonals, just posts with holes in the flanges to thread the eye bolts through? so Full straining post with diagonal, 24 wood, vertical bridge rail, 24 wood, vertical bridge rail, 24 wood etc., until at the other end when we get another set of 24 wood before the final full straining post with diagonal? So 240 odd posts between full straining posts (about 20 feet at 4mm scale)? No doubt reduced if there was some junction or big change of direction. And I guess on very long runs the double diagonal straining posts were used though I will not need them on my station boundary.

Andy

 

Yes, you've got it!

 

[Andy Keane]

Right - I have some broad gauge society bridge rail in stock so will see what I can make from that for the verticals - I could print them but they would not be stiff enough to do anything on their own. 

[Andy Keane]

One bit of NS bridge rail drilled with seven 0.5mm holes in its flange - not so simple to do - I am using the digital traverse on my Myford underneath a Proxon drill with a PCB drill bit. When they are all done I will use the traverse and a fixed tool to cut the missing groove down the back which the Broad Gauge Soc don't put into their rails.

Edited April 10 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

I have been and surveyed my layout and find I will need 12 bridge rail stretcher posts and five of the vertical bridge rail intermediate posts. I also plan to model the wooden posts right at the edge of the boards using 2mm square brass section to make them a bit more robust than the Ratio plastic ones.

[Andy Keane]

A related question. When a long retaining wall ends and the wire fence starts would a straining post be used or would the wires be attached to the wall in some fashion? I guess its not obvious how to make such attachments and allow for the wire tensioning bolt fittings so maybe a post was used, even though a substantial structure belonging to the railway was present? I guess the same question applied to bridge parapets.

Andy

[Siberian Snooper]

Straining posts.