Southern L1 4-4-0

[Pierview]

Can anyone tell me whether the SR L1 class 4-4-0 's were LH or RH drive? 

 

Thanks

Barry

[Wickham Green too]

Right Hand ............ hence the steam reverser's on that side like on previous Wainwright 4-4-0s. Most other SECR-inspired Southern locos were also RH drive - except the last handful of N class and second batch of Ws : looks like the decision to go LHD was taken in the summer of '32.

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Right Hand ............ hence the steam reverser's on that side like on previous Wainwright 4-4-0s. Most other SECR-inspired Southern locos were also RH drive - except the last handful of N class and second batch of Ws : looks like the decision to go LHD was taken in the summer of '32.

Which might just have had something to do with the impending main-line electrification schemes. Electric trains, of course, were all LHD and there would have been a desire to site the new signals in such a way as to optimise sighting from the new electrics. Even if management didn't immediately spot that that meant that was desirable for new build steam locos to also be LHD, ASLEF wouldn't have been slow to point it out.

[Pierview]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Right Hand ............ hence the steam reverser's on that side like on previous Wainwright 4-4-0s. Most other SECR-inspired Southern locos were also RH drive - except the last handful of N class and second batch of Ws : looks like the decision to go LHD was taken in the summer of '32.

Thank you, that's extremely useful!

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Which might just have had something to do with the impending main-line electrification schemes. Electric trains, of course, were all LHD ...

Electrics were LHD so that the motorman could look back and the see the guard's handsignals .... he had no fireman to ask, of course - but I don't think signalling would have been repositioned simply to suit their handing as the forward view from an electric is uncluttered by a dirty great boiler ! ( In fact all the impending main-line electrification was to be on former LSWR or LBSCR lines which should have been optimised for LHD already ! )

Don't forget the LMS and LNER also changed to LHD at about that time and neither had vast lengths of electrification ........ needless to say the GWR just carried on doing their own thing.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Wickham Green too
( in fact .... )

[Oldddudders]

All of which rather begs the question why, in a country where left-hand running has for so long been the norm on double track railways, anyone designed a loco with right-hand drive? 

[bécasse]

25 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

All of which rather begs the question why, in a country where left-hand running has for so long been the norm on double track railways, anyone designed a loco with right-hand drive? 

Because it placed the reversing lever by the driver's right hand perhaps?

[bécasse]

11 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

 .......... but I don't think signalling would have been repositioned simply to suit their handing as the forward view from an electric is uncluttered by a dirty great boiler ! ( In fact all the impending main-line electrification was to be on former LSWR or LBSCR lines which should have been optimised for LHD already ! )

 

I am sure that there would not have been any repositioning simply for sighting but don't forget that not only was the Brighton line from Coulsdon to Brighton completely resignalled (with colour lights) but also significant track layout alterations were made as the "country" electrification spread east and west of the main line and these entailed major signalling alterations as well.

 

One side issue that your comment inadvertently raises concerns the original colour light signal installations on the South Eastern where many of the signal posts were placed on the right hand side of the running line. I have always assumed that this was just expediency in areas where clearances were tight but, while I suspect that that remains the main reason, I now wonder whether it was considered more acceptable simply because most of the steam locos that would have to observe them would have been RHD. If so, that would have been a minor contributor to the Lewisham accident of December 1957 whose primary cause was the inability of the driver of a LHD steam loco to observe in thick fog c/l signals placed on the right hand side of the running line.

[Nearholmer]

If you watch that old film with a title something like “You are the Motorman”, which shows a cab view going from (IIRC) East Croydon into Victoria, the signal-sighting is truly awful! In the more complex bits, it’s a miracle to me that the motorman, let alone the driver of a steamer, could pick out “his” signal, especially in the dark. My conclusion is that signal-sighting was still a ‘developing art’ in the 1930s.

 

Regarding electrification, don’t forget that the Brighton Line was the Southern’s second Great Leap Forward, they’d already sorted all of the core suburban services before starting on that.

 

None of which answers why the change in driving position was made when it was. I don’t know.

[Wickham Green too]

44 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

... None of which answers why the change in driving position was made when it was. I don’t know.

The change was only to the SECR inspires classes which were still in production or - arguably - not yet in production ( taking the 'Q' as an enlarged 'C' ) ......... all other 'standard' Maunsell classes were Eastleigh inspired so already LHD.

[bécasse]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Regarding electrification, don’t forget that the Brighton Line was the Southern’s second Great Leap Forward, they’d already sorted all of the core suburban services before starting on that.

 

None of which answers why the change in driving position was made when it was. I don’t know.

1) However, with the exception of the inner London area of the SED, electrification of the suburban lines was accompanied by relatively little resignalling (which, of course, became a big, big problem on the Central in the late-1930s, only overcome pro tem by everyday - or at least peak hour - use of the Sykes key).

 

2) Given that the LMSR and LNER seem to have firmed up on the LHD position at the same time, I suppose it is possible that it was one of the agreed standardisation issues, the reality of signalling "standardisation" was obvious for all to see (even if it was everything but standard) but agreeing to go forward on LHD would have been less obvious, and thus less commented on, even though it fits naturally with the signalling changes. The fact that the GWR didn't adopt LHD might just add weight to this theory.

[Wickham Green too]

Just a wee bit more research into the 'northern' Companies : the LMS built their 4F 0-6-0s as LHD from late 1925 and the LNER J38s seem to have been LHD from new in 1926 - so there was certainly some movement in that direction a good while before 1932 !

[bécasse]

6 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Just a wee bit more research into the 'northern' Companies : the LMS built their 4F 0-6-0s as LHD from late 1925 and the LNER J38s seem to have been LHD from new in 1926 - so there was certainly some movement in that direction a good while before 1932 !

I believe that the various "standardisation" committees started work during the period of government control that lasted from 1914 to the actual grouping, so changes implemented in 1925 and 1926 could well be a result of their work. Certainly the change of colour (to yellow) for distant signals* started to be implemented about then even though most of the other signalling changes weren't initiated before 1929 or later. The change doesn't even have had to have come from a recommendation, the bigger companies were all well represented and knew what was being discussed and could simply have decided for themselves as a result of those discussions that it was a sensible move to make (unless you were the GWR who, of course, knew better).

 

* The GNR, and possibly one or two other companies, had started to use yellow for distant signals just before the Great War. Distant signal arms had been notched since c1876, seemingly universally, prior to that they had been identical to stop signal arms, only route knowledge telling drivers which was which.