P4 ply and rivet turnout build

[Torper]

May thanks, Hayfield, but I'm still a bit confused.  The upper of the three types of gauge you pictured appear to be the same as the triangular gauge I have - it grips both sides to the head of the rail quite tightly, so tightly that I'm not sure that it allow for canting below.  I think I might try a little filing to take a smidgeon off the outer pins and thereby loosen their grip slightly.

 

The centre one, on the other hand, appear to have no outer pins and I don't understand how it can therefore hold the rail in place - certainly it will help set the rail to gauge but what is there then to stop the rail wandering off out as soon as it is released?

 

To some extent the same applies to the Exactoscale gauges - I can't see anything that would hold the outer edge of the rail in place.

 

I have some old S4 Soc roller gauges (studding, washers and springs) which are deep enough to hold the whole height of the rail.  I think I'll try winding some soft wire round the insides to reduce their depth so that they only grip the top of the rail.  Meanwhile I'll have al ook at these C&L gauges.

[Siberian Snooper]

With roller gauges, you can wind some fine wire in the grooves, to lift the sides of the gauge high enough to allow the foot of the rail to be clear of the gauge. For triangular gauges, file a bit off of the outside ears to allow the rail to twist.

 

 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Torper said:

May thanks, Hayfield, but I'm still a bit confused.  The upper of the three types of gauge you pictured appear to be the same as the triangular gauge I have - it grips both sides to the head of the rail quite tightly, so tightly that I'm not sure that it allow for canting below.  I think I might try a little filing to take a smidgeon off the outer pins and thereby loosen their grip slightly.

 

This is the issue with chaired track, either reduce the depth of the gauge with wire or as you have said make the gap larger

 

1 hour ago, Torper said:

 

The centre one, on the other hand, appear to have no outer pins and I don't understand how it can therefore hold the rail in place - certainly it will help set the rail to gauge but what is there then to stop the rail wandering off out as soon as it is released?

 

If there are chairs on the rail then there is no need for the rail to be held, glue the inside rail to the sleepers/timbers, once set hard fit the outer rail, the 3 point gauge will do the rest

1 hour ago, Torper said:

To some extent the same applies to the Exactoscale gauges - I can't see anything that would hold the outer edge of the rail in place.

 

No issue once you follow what I said about fitting one rail first

 

1 hour ago, Torper said:

 

I have some old S4 Soc roller gauges (studding, washers and springs) which are deep enough to hold the whole height of the rail.  I think I'll try winding some soft wire round the insides to reduce their depth so that they only grip the top of the rail.  Meanwhile I'll have al ook at these C&L gauges.

 

Just loosen the springs !!, the gap will widen automatically 

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

With roller gauges, you can wind some fine wire in the grooves, to lift the sides of the gauge high enough to allow the foot of the rail to be clear of the gauge. For triangular gauges, file a bit off of the outside ears to allow the rail to twist.

 

 

 

 

Or simply remove the outer ears !!

[martin_wynne]

8 hours ago, Torper said:

Incidentally, one measurement of which I've never previously been sure about is that the switch opening width for P4

 

hi.

 

the prototype switch opening is 4.1/4" = 1.42mm for P4

 

for EM and 00-SF the recommended opening is 1.75mm which can be set using a 20p coin as a spacer.

 

for standard 00 the recommended opening is 2.0 mm.

 

martin.

[Izzy]

One aspect to be aware of with canted rail is that it will tend to curl upwards/downwards when curved/bent so needs to be worked to lie flat at that 1:20 angle. This is seen with the inside rail with curved track where the ends will rise - with the outside it will rise in the middle - but is most noticeable with wing rails at crossings. I find the need to use pliers to get these bits to lay flat after making the sharp bend. You have to fit the chairs and see how it lays and then bend it to suit as one end or the other will otherwise stick up in the air.

 

Bob

[martin_wynne]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

One aspect to be aware of with canted rail is that it will tend to curl upwards/downwards when curved/bent so needs to be worked to lie flat at that 1:20 angle. This is seen with the inside rail with curved track where the ends will rise - with the outside it will rise in the middle - but is most noticeable with wing rails at crossings. I find the need to use pliers to get these bits to lay flat after making the sharp bend. You have to fit the chairs and see how it lays and then bend it to suit as one end or the other will otherwise stick up in the air.

 

Bob

 

which explains why the rail in templot plug track is all vertical and we are not touching canted rail with a bargepole, ever.

 

if you want canted rail (no-one can see the difference) plug track is not for you.

 

on the prototype all check rails are vertical, and from 1970 to 2000 all pointwork renewals were vertical.

 

martin.

 

 

[Siberian Snooper]

8 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

which explains why the rail in templot plug track is all vertical and we are not touching canted rail with a bargepole, ever.

 

if you want canted rail (no-one can see the difference) plug track is not for you.

 

on the prototype all check rails are vertical, and from 1970 to 2000 all pointwork renewals were vertical.

 

martin.

 

 

 

 

As are the wing rails towards the Vee, after the knuckle.

 

 

[hayfield]

There are a couple of the Exactoscale P4 Company kits for sale on eBay an A6 & a B7

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335105255569?hash=item4e05d46891:g:os4AAOSw0gtlR4rA

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335105255575

 

 

The basis and preformed steel rails and subassemblies

 

Some of the special chairs (switch and common crossing)

 

 

These premade track bases are a great tomes saver, designed for P4 but can be used in EM gauge

Edited November 11, 2023 by hayfield

[Torper]

Hayfield, I'm afraid that I still don't understand how track gauges that only measure the insides of the rails and have no pins on the outside of the rails, e.g. the triangular one with the outside pins removed and the Eaxctoscale ones that you illustrated, can work.  OK, let's assume that we're laying a curved section of plain track; we lay the insde rail and secure it in place. then we lay the outside rail that has been chaired.  Surely this must have pins on the outside to hold it in place as otherwise it will naturally spring away whenever possible.  It must then continue to be held as other chairs are secured as otherwise it will come away from where it was fixed.  I can see it would be fine for testing the gauge after track has been kaid, but not for the laying itself.  Having said that, you and others are so confident in this that I feel I must be missing something but I can't think what.

[hayfield]

2 hours ago, Torper said:

Hayfield, I'm afraid that I still don't understand how track gauges that only measure the insides of the rails and have no pins on the outside of the rails, e.g. the triangular one with the outside pins removed and the Eaxctoscale ones that you illustrated, can work.  OK, let's assume that we're laying a curved section of plain track; we lay the insde rail and secure it in place. then we lay the outside rail that has been chaired.  Surely this must have pins on the outside to hold it in place as otherwise it will naturally spring away whenever possible.  It must then continue to be held as other chairs are secured as otherwise it will come away from where it was fixed.  I can see it would be fine for testing the gauge after track has been kaid, but not for the laying itself.  Having said that, you and others are so confident in this that I feel I must be missing something but I can't think what.

 

You can use other gauges at each end, or once one end is stuck if the rail is slightly overbent, the natural spring in the rail will hold it in place.

 

Its exactly the same when using block gauges, if a S7 turnout can be built entirely with a block gauge, I am certain its fine in any of the 4mm scales, and block gauges do not grip

 

Certainly with plastic timbers it is very possible, as the solvent will have enough strength after a few seconds to grip the rail in the correct position, then wait till the joints set a bit harder, then do the next section. 

 

Simply its thinking how to do it, especially if you have nothing else

 

When Exactoscale track system was introduced (late nineties/early noughties) their track gauges did not grip the rails, and they were for P4 !!!!