7mm scale bolt heads

[Hal Nail]

Half way through weathering one of the Dapol 7mm LMS vans today I remembered i was supposed to be adding the diagonal bracing fitted in BR days. After my experiences shaving off and reusing Cooper Craft bolt heads on my china clay conversion, I don't fancy doing that again and I thought I might try the @railtec-models 3D rivet transfers but I haven't got a clue what size to order. I'm not bothered about spacing as I'd invariably need to position them individually but does anyone know from experience what size would fit in with typical 7mm moulded bolt head detail?

[Sitham Yard]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

Half way through weathering one of the Dapol 7mm LMS vans today I remembered i was supposed to be adding the diagonal bracing fitted in BR days. After my experiences shaving off and reusing Cooper Craft bolt heads on my china clay conversion, I don't fancy doing that again and I thought I might try the @railtec-models 3D rivet transfers but I haven't got a clue what size to order. I'm not bothered about spacing as I'd invariably need to position them individually but does anyone know from experience what size would fit in with typical 7mm moulded bolt head detail?

As far as I am aware the bolt head was on the inside and what is visible is the nut on the end of the bolt on both the existing metalwork and the added diagonals.

Andrew

[Dave John]

Have a read at the excellent thread "S7 scratch building" by airnimal. In there you will see extensive use of the Masterclub range of nuts, bolts and rivets

 

 

I have been using them a lot in 1/50 scale. To my eye they better represent nuts on a bolt than rivet transfers for larger scales. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Dave John

[railtec-models]

3 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Half way through weathering one of the Dapol 7mm LMS vans today I remembered i was supposed to be adding the diagonal bracing fitted in BR days. After my experiences shaving off and reusing Cooper Craft bolt heads on my china clay conversion, I don't fancy doing that again and I thought I might try the @railtec-models 3D rivet transfers but I haven't got a clue what size to order. I'm not bothered about spacing as I'd invariably need to position them individually but does anyone know from experience what size would fit in with typical 7mm moulded bolt head detail?

 

As well as the existing range of 200+ packs of ready-made/spaced rivets, I've already prototyped nuts/bolts. I started with hexagonals as if that was ok then square nuts would be a doddle. These are tiny as you can tell by the laptop keyboard in the same shot for comparison, and the photo is taken from a pretty average phone, but you can see the results:

 

 

When I get a moment the entire range of 3d rivets will be replicated in hexag nuts/bolts as above. I.e. so you will get strips and strips of ready-made nuts/bolts that are perfectly spaced, crisp and uniform that will enable you to apply to whatever you like in seconds.

 

If there's a need for me to replicate with square nuts/bolts then I can do that too.

 

@Hal Nail is it the hexags you're looking for or rivets?

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by railtec-models

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, railtec-models said:

 

@Hal Nail is it the hexags you're looking for or rivets?

 

 

Thanks for the various replies everyone.

 

This is the raw van to which I will be adding two diagonal braces running from the bottom of the door to the top outer corner, fitted in BR days (per the Didcot example in the link, which has also had a visit or two from the plywood fairy!).

 

I'd want something as close to the Dapol representation of bolts/nuts on the metal end, otherwise it will just stick out like a sore thumb.

 

They are absolutely tiny though so to be totally honest, even though I think I'm probably towards the anal end of the modelling spectrum, i am perfectly happy with round lumps as long as they aren't too big - which is where I'm lost on the sizing.

 

 

 

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/215/no-517791-lms-goods-van

 

 

[Hal Nail]

4 hours ago, Sitham Yard said:

As far as I am aware the bolt head was on the inside and what is visible is the nut on the end of the bolt on both the existing metalwork and the added diagonals.

Andrew

 

Yes you are right - in fact now I think about it I helped take a Palvan door apart at Alton a couple of months ago which had the nuts on the outside. The inside was a smooth head with a squared off "inner" which just gouged a hole in the rotten plywood then spun round!

 

Albeit I doubt any of it is original!

Edited October 25, 2023 by Hal Nail

[railtec-models]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

They are absolutely tiny though so to be totally honest, even though I think I'm probably towards the anal end of the modelling spectrum, i am perfectly happy with round lumps as long as they aren't too big - which is where I'm lost on the sizing.

 

 

Ok I've just had literally a spare moment waiting for the tea to brew so thought I'd try to help. I've just imported your photo into graphics software. On the assumption that those planks where the numbers sit are standard 6" planks, then by my reckoning those rivets or bolts are 0.5" (0.292mm) diam, which will put you along the 7mm-9203 / 9213 / 9223 / 9233 row in the table below, those various options depending on what spacing you need:

 

https://www.railtec-models.com/rivets.php?type=7mmr

 

You may want to sanity check this though, as importing photos of models isn't necessarily always accurate. Hope it helps though.

 

 

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Thanks for the various replies everyone.

 

This is the raw van to which I will be adding two diagonal braces running from the bottom of the door to the top outer corner, fitted in BR days (per the Didcot example in the link, which has also had a visit or two from the plywood fairy!).

 

I'd want something as close to the Dapol representation of bolts/nuts on the metal end, otherwise it will just stick out like a sore thumb.

 

They are absolutely tiny though so to be totally honest, even though I think I'm probably towards the anal end of the modelling spectrum, i am perfectly happy with round lumps as long as they aren't too big - which is where I'm lost on the sizing.

 

 

 

https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/article.php/215/no-517791-lms-goods-van

 

 

Oh dear is that the Dapol writing? The M should be equivalent of 4 inches, with the numerals 3 inches. The 12T being 2 inch is correct. 

 

It's not as if the writing diagrams for this early period are difficult to get - all in the Scottish library. 

 

Paul

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, railtec-models said:

 

Ok I've just had literally a spare moment waiting for the tea to brew so thought I'd try to help. I've just imported your photo into graphics software. On the assumption that those planks where the numbers sit are standard 6" planks, then by my reckoning those rivets or bolts are 0.5" (0.292mm) diam, which will put you along the 7mm-9203 / 9213 / 9223 / 9233 row in the table below, those various options depending on what spacing you need:

 

https://www.railtec-models.com/rivets.php?type=7mmr

 

You may want to sanity check this though, as importing photos of models isn't necessarily always accurate. Hope it helps though.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot Steve - I nearly missed this!

The planks are 3.5mm so I'll try one of those.

 

[airnimal]

As I have been mentioned by Dave John for using Masterclub nuts and bolts I thought a close up of one of my wagons might be of interest. Both the rivets and bolts here are from the Masterclub range.

[JeffP]

15 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Yes you are right - in fact now I think about it I helped take a Palvan door apart at Alton a couple of months ago which had the nuts on the outside. The inside was a smooth head with a squared off "inner" which just gouged a hole in the rotten plywood then spun round!

 

Albeit I doubt any of it is original!

Those are called coach bolts.

I avoid the real ones like the plague unless they are stainless steel, as they rust and even tear sheet metal apart, then spin, rather than release.

[railtec-models]

11 hours ago, airnimal said:

As I have been mentioned by Dave John for using Masterclub nuts and bolts I thought a close up of one of my wagons might be of interest. Both the rivets and bolts here are from the Masterclub range.

 

Doesn't each one of those Masterclub bolts have to be applied individually? (And aren't they made in Russia so potential supply challenges?)

That wagon does look good and hats off for having the patience to apply all those one at a time, assuming that's what you did. Must have taken some considerable time.

[airnimal]

I must admit I do have some patience when it comes to this sort of detail.  What I don't have is patience when trying to remove a rusty nut or something similar or replace a hard to get at component. 

 

Yes these nuts, bolts and rivets need to be applied individually in pre drilled holes which does take time and the tank wagon was an etched tank that I tried to punch out the rivets. Because I punched a couple to hard on one or two of them which was very noticeable I decided to drill through and apply the Masterclub rivets instead. All 692 of them all were dipped in superglue and dropped in with fine tweezers.  Mad I know !

 

[Mike Bellamy]

If you like the idea of drilling and gluing (see above), then have a look at EDM Models at the link below - 1:48 instead of 1:43 but as they are so small I don't suppose the scale difference will matter much !!

 

https://ngtrains.com/shop/brand/titchy-trains-group/

.

[Hal Nail]

I converted this, adding the end door plus the T section uprights either side of the middle door. All the bolt heads on those were shaved off the original end and reused. Bit of a faff but at least they match that way.

 

I don't fancy its chances of ever running in a rake in my lifetime!

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Hal Nail

[Hal Nail]

Remind me who came up with this stupid idea?! Oh, it was me.

 

@railtec-models - spot on with the sizing Steve!

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Hal Nail

[railtec-models]

36 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Remind me who came up with this stupid idea?!

 

@railtec-models - spot on with the sizing Steve!

 

You're welcome. I can't tell which (if any, some or all?) of those rivets on the wagon are mine!

[pwr]

I am glad you posted this. I want to use these rivets when I get around to building my APT. I was fortunate enough to be able to measure the real thing at Locomotion and take plenty of photos of the layout of the real thing - All I can say is that there are lots of them!!!!

 

Paul R

[Hal Nail]

8 hours ago, pwr said:

I am glad you posted this. I want to use these rivets when I get around to building my APT. I was fortunate enough to be able to measure the real thing at Locomotion and take plenty of photos of the layout of the real thing - All I can say is that there are lots of them!!!!

 

Paul R

 

If at all possible, and in fairness this is the intention, try and use them as strips. With a bit of practice cutting and sliding them off individually as I've done works but the little critters can land upside down or stick to anything except the model!

 

I've haven't dared go near them to seal yet although I'm sure they will stay now.

[Hal Nail]

On 26/10/2023 at 20:44, Hal Nail said:

 

 

@railtec-models Hi Steve - are you able to work your magic again and estimate what size i would need for these? The planks are 4mm. I'd be inclined to try the 0.73mm?