Liveries in the Second World War

[Fair Oak Junction]

In the mid part of the war (1942-43) would it have been common to still see locomotives running around in Malachite? I know that locos were repainted black when they went in for overhaul, so I assume some locos which were overhauled before the war would have not been repainted by that point?

 

And as a secondary question, would any locos still be in olive green at this point in time?

[phil-b259]

43 minutes ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

In the mid part of the war (1942-43) would it have been common to still see locomotives running around in Malachite? I know that locos were repainted black when they went in for overhaul, so I assume some locos which were overhauled before the war would have not been repainted by that point?

 

And as a secondary question, would any locos still be in olive green at this point in time?

 

The Southern railway was always very cost conscious (hence the re-varnishing of coaches rather than repaints during overhauls if possible) so didn't rush round painting everything in the new mans colours unless the paint needed renewing for practical reasons.

 

As such application of Malachite would have been limited to a smattering of locos which happened to be overhauled in 1939 before the conflict started with the vast majority of 'green' locos entering WW2 in Olive - and more relevant to your second question, staying that way for the duration unless they underwent overhaul during the war years (when they would have been painted plain black - not Malachite)

Edited November 1, 2023 by phil-b259

[Fair Oak Junction]

4 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The Southern railway was always very cost conscious (hence the re-varnishing of coaches rather than repaints during overhauls if possible) so didn't rush round painting everything in the new mans colours unless the paint needed renewing for practical reasons.

 

As such application of Malachite would have been limited to a smattering of locos which happened to be overhauled in 1939 before the conflict started with the vast majority of 'green' locos entering WW2 in Olive - and more relevant to your second question, staying that way for the duration unless they underwent overhaul during the war years (when they would have been painted plain black - not Malachite)

 

Ahhhh, interesting. Thank you 👍

[phil-b259]

Don't Forget Maunsel didn't retire until 1937 and Bulleid took some time finalising his colour schemes upon taking office. In the ordinary way of things Malachite would have spread reasonably quickly but obviously given the outbreak of war in September 1939 (plus the fact that planning for said conflict / some shortages in terms of raw materials began to happen a good 6-12 months before that) would have thrown a massive spanner in new management teams plans and curtailed lots of things they would have done if the conflict hadn't occurred when it did.

[Fair Oak Junction]

Good point, I didn't think of it like that. I guess I've been greatly overestimating how common Malachite would have been pre-war.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Obsidian Quarry

[Jack P]

There are some really interesting livery variations that came about as a result of the war, Olive wheels, black uppers, cab and boiler different colours, etc.

I'd strong recommend picking up a copy of Brian Haresnape's "Southern Railway : Railway Liveries". 

 

To answer the question a little more though. You'd be far more likely to have a large proportion of olive green and maunsell goods black liveried locos than you would Malachite ones, there was an early malachite that had white and black lining, that was changed later. Wartime black repaints did happen though, and there were some subtle variations to the Sunshine lettering that was applied.

 

Hope that helps!

[Fair Oak Junction]

Very interesting, thanks.
And I'll have a look for the book 👍

[Tony Cane]

The transition from Maunsell green to war time black created a number of variations in livery. As an example the information in the Bradley book on Adams LSWR locomotives for the A12 Jubilee locomotives gives the following

 

October 1939 five locomotives painted Maunsell green with Maunsell lettering unlined

in late 1939 to February 1941 ten locomotives painted Mausell green with Bulleid lettering

late 1940, early 1941 two locomotives painted malachite green

[chris45lsw]

After April 1942 all repaints of locos were in black, with a few exceptions, until 1946 except for Pacifics -  green from April 1945.  But there were examples of engines which avoided repaint and retained Maunsell livery throughout the War, in some cases, to Nationalisation.  For instance M7s 58 and 129 received lined Maunsell livery in 1939 and kept it until March 1948 and October 1947 respectively. 

 

Chris KT

[Wickham Green too]

On 02/11/2023 at 09:28, Obsidian Quarry said:

... And I'll have a look for the book 👍

There's far more info in https://hmrs.org.uk/southern style-the-southern-railway-book.html .... and it benefits from umpteen years' further research.

[Jack P]

On 04/11/2023 at 05:48, Wickham Green too said:

There's far more info in https://hmrs.org.uk/southern style-the-southern-railway-book.html .... and it benefits from umpteen years' further research.

I had completely forgotten about this one - would absolutely recommend it! 

[Fair Oak Junction]

I managed to pick up a copy of the older book for £10 before the newer one was recommended.

I will try and buy the newer one as well but it'll take me a bit longer to save up for it.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

... I will try and buy the newer one as well but it'll take me a bit longer to save up for it.

The Southern Railways Group has stocks - at a discounted price for members - hint - hint ! ( Other suppliers are available )

[Fair Oak Junction]

I will keep that in mind 😉

[Fair Oak Junction]

On 02/11/2023 at 11:40, Tony Cane said:

late 1940, early 1941 two locomotives painted malachite green

 

Would the book happen to say which two A12s were painted in malachite green?

Edited November 11, 2023 by Obsidian Quarry

[Wickham Green too]

"... malachite green with no lining ... A12   638 in October 1940 and 600 in January 1941 ..."

[bécasse]

21 hours ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

 

Would the book happen to say which two A12s were painted in malachite green?

I don't know what the book says but from other sources 555 and 638 would appear to be the pair. 638 is a definite as I have seen a photo of it in (very tatty) malachite livery but I think that it spent much of its time in that livery working on the Longmoor Military Railway.

 

Ah I see from Wickham Green that 600 was the other one mentioned as well as 638. However 555 was definitely repainted "green" in the early war years, apparently after reinstatement, and I would have anticipated that that would mean malachite (but was apparently Maunsell Green with Bulleid-style lettering).

Edited November 12, 2023 by bécasse

[Fair Oak Junction]

Thank you both, that is very helpful 👍

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, bécasse said:

... 555 was definitely repainted "green" in the early war years, ...

Also from John Harvey - "October 1939 - March 1941, Bulleid lettering on unlined Maunsell green ... A12    555, 597, 606, 612, 614, 624, 629, 636, 643, 649".

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/southern style-the-southern-railway-book.html IS still available !

[Fair Oak Junction]

I know I know, I will get it ASAP! 😄

[bécasse]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Also from John Harvey - "October 1939 - March 1941, Bulleid lettering on unlined Maunsell green ... A12    555, 597, 606, 612, 614, 624, 629, 636, 643, 649".

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/southern style-the-southern-railway-book.html IS still available !

Given they that are unlikely to have been kept clean - the photo that I have seen of 638 would put most model weathering attempts to shame - it might well have been difficult to see which green was actually used or, indeed, whether it was actually mixed to full specification. It would, though, have made perfect sense to use up old stocks on locos like the A12 class. With hindsight, it is probably remarkable that they were painted any version of green during wartime.

[Fair Oak Junction]

So how dirty did locomotives during the war commonly get, mid-late 1960s level?

(I have ordered the book now, just waiting for it to come)

[bécasse]

With many men (and later single women) away in the forces, only essential cleaning tasks would have been undertaken - and there may well have been a feeling too that a dirty loco was marginally less obvious from the air than a clean one. Wartime photos are obviously rare but shots from the early post-war years tend to show grubby locos (and most other things too). In the photo I mentioned before of 638, which I suspect may have been taken by the late Henry Casserley, the number and the SOUTHERN legend can only just be made out and, if it were in colour (which it wasn't) I suspect that it would have been very difficult to determine which green it was in, or, indeed, whether it was green rather than black. As you suggest, doubtless all very reminiscent of the mid/late sixties era.

Edited November 16, 2023 by bécasse

[Fair Oak Junction]

Well my copy of Southern Style has arrived. I've never been intimidated by a book before 😂

It is definitely the opposite side of the hobby to my very casual approach, but will certainly prove very useful.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Fair Oak Junction

[Fair Oak Junction]

Is there any easy to find source of information for exactly what liveries individual locos carried and when?

I have books on MNs, Nelson, Arthurs, and Schools with all that info but not for the more "common" classes (M7s, T9s, O2s, A12s, etc, etc)

The info may well be in the Southern Style book, but I'm honestly having a tough time taking it all in 😄