London day travelcards saved

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

That's a good example of the  anomalies that case such complexity in trying to work out the cheapest fare for the journeys you want to do. 

Understanding the ticketing system really shouldn't be difficult - but it's one of the things that puts the average punter off using the railways.

 

Public transport is generally seen as more environmentally friendly than private cars but indiviudals make decisions based on the personal impact of the economics of the system we live under.  At the end of the day I suppose it's a political decision whether we want to make train travel convenient, comfortable and affordable for everybody or aim to fill spare capacity in order to optimise utilisation of expensive assets and maximise revenue and profits for the benefit of the individual owning bodies.  

There are good reasons for these sort of anomalies where where there is an overlay of TfL  fare Zones onto National Rail routes.  The two, especially with market pricing of fares for longer distance journeys, will result in what at first sight appear to be anomalies.  But lower fares to plav ces further away aren't restricted to British railway fares and can be found on, for example, airlines, where it is cheaper to change at B and go on to C than it is to buy a ticket to B and go no further.

 

But of course anomalies don't matter where the trains from whereever fuurther out don't stop at the TfL boundary station!

[Bernard Lamb]

An off peak day return, plus zones 1-6 travel card, is currently £3.75 more than an off peak return to Euston

Even if you are only going to one place from Euston, it saves having to faff around with a different card. Take a third journey and you are well in pocket. It will be interesting to see just what the relative costs will be after the next fare increase.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

50 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

An off peak day return, plus zones 1-6 travel card, is currently £3.75 more than an off peak return to Euston

Even if you are only going to one place from Euston, it saves having to faff around with a different card. Take a third journey and you are well in pocket. It will be interesting to see just what the relative costs will be after the next fare increase.

Bernard

I often wonder how frequently Travel Cards are used for more than an out & back trip from the main line terminus?  My son usually just does Paddington to Liverpool St and back when r travelling to football although occasionally he and his mates go for a meal once they're back in London from Norwich so that adds two more trips in the day but it is unusual

[Bernard Lamb]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

I often wonder how frequently Travel Cards are used for more than an out & back trip from the main line terminus?  My son usually just does Paddington to Liverpool St and back when r travelling to football although occasionally he and his mates go for a meal once they're back in London from Norwich so that adds two more trips in the day but it is unusual

I would think it is quite common to do only an out and back trip.

I belong to a group that has monthly visits to locations in London. Probably attended by 25 people on average, with two different groups going to the same place. Most of them will go on the trip and either go straight home, or divert to visit one other place such as a museum or other exhibition, or a particular place to eat. There are many family groups on the first off peak train who are going to one specific place, but might stop at another. I would reckon that a large percentage of customers fit into this category rather than being people who travel for much of the day.

Bernard

[Michael Hodgson]

30 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

 I would reckon that a large percentage of customers fit into this category rather than being people who travel for much of the day.

The people whose "lifestyle choice" is sleeping rough used to be ones who kept travelling all day. 

An Underground ticket was a cost-effective way of keeping warm in winter

[Hal Nail]

When I travel up to London from home, I usually get a return to Clapham, which is cheaper than the ticket into zone 1. I then use an oyster (contactless) and would need to do multiple trips before I'd got anywhere near the incremental cost of a travelcard (£14 more, typical oyster fare c£2)

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding? My fares may not be typical.

 

Off topic but an off peak day return from home to Clapham is c£30 but an anytime return from Clapham to mine is c£21. Is it permitted to buy the cheaper one, which you can from a machine, and just use the tickets in reverse order? I can't actually see anything in the conditions that says you can't.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Hal Nail

[The Stationmaster]

On 11/11/2023 at 08:14, Hal Nail said:

When I travel up to London from home, I usually get a return to Clapham, which is cheaper than the ticket into zone 1. I then use an oyster (contactless) and would need to do multiple trips before I'd got anywhere near the incremental cost of a travelcard (£14 more, typical oyster fare c£2)

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding? My fares may not be typical.

 

Off topic but an off peak day return from home to Clapham is c£30 but an anytime return from Clapham to mine is c£21. Is it permitted to buy the cheaper one, which you can from a machine, and just use the tickets in reverse order? I can't actually see anything in the conditions that says you can't.

According to the Conditions of Travel the return part is only valid when it is used after  the outward portion.   That is of course intended to prevent you doing it when a fare is cheaper in one direction that it is in the other direction.    I won't tell you how it is possible to get round that one although it might be possible with some form of ticket but I have yet to see any person examining tickets ask to see the outward ticket when examining the return one.

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

According to the Conditions of Travel the return part is only valid when it is used after  the outward portion.   That is of course intended to prevent you doing it when a fare is cheaper in one direction that it is in the other direction.    I won't tell you how it is possible to get round that one although it might be possible with some form of ticket but I have yet to see any person examining tickets ask to see the outward ticket when examining the return one.

Thanks. Just annoys me a that if I set out to get the 8.45 from home it would be more than if I left clapham at 6 and returned on the 8.45. So different fare for exactly the same train.

[Michael Hodgson]

6 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

According to the Conditions of Travel the return part is only valid when it is used after  the outward portion.   That is of course intended to prevent you doing it when a fare is cheaper in one direction that it is in the other direction.    I won't tell you how it is possible to get round that one although it might be possible with some form of ticket but I have yet to see any person examining tickets ask to see the outward ticket when examining the return one.

 

With the old Edmundson tickets if you had used the outward portion first as intended, you would no longer even have it for anybody to inspect as you would have handed it in at the barrier,  This is also true of many current tickets where you are given a separate piece of paper for each portion. 

 

If you wanted to catch out somebody travelling out of sequence, you'd have to ask to see the return half on the outward journey, not the other way round.

[Bernard Lamb]

On 11/11/2023 at 08:14, Hal Nail said:

When I travel up to London from home, I usually get a return to Clapham, which is cheaper than the ticket into zone 1. I then use an oyster (contactless) and would need to do multiple trips before I'd got anywhere near the incremental cost of a travelcard (£14 more, typical oyster fare c£2)

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding? My fares may not be typical.

 

Off topic but an off peak day return from home to Clapham is c£30 but an anytime return from Clapham to mine is c£21. Is it permitted to buy the cheaper one, which you can from a machine, and just use the tickets in reverse order? I can't actually see anything in the conditions that says you can't.

I came across a similar situation a few years ago when looking into visiting the I o W. There was one ticket available where the Clapham to Portsmouth section was less than £1. The other direction was much more expensive as were most through tickets. I think that the cheap version was using the Southern service between Watford and Clapham. There were several combinations for the journey that varied by a great amount depending on time, route and order.

Bernard

[Hal Nail]

12 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

you'd have to ask to see the return half on the outward journey, not the other way round.

Yes agreed although this messes with your head after a while and hypothetical anyway as i won't be doing it!

 

When travelling back "on reverse" you would be using the outbound after the return. If the return had already been clipped when used on the first leg and they asked to see both portions, which technically they can on an outbound leg, you'd get caught out. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by Hal Nail

[adb968008]

14 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

With the old Edmundson tickets if you had used the outward portion first as intended, you would no longer even have it for anybody to inspect as you would have handed it in at the barrier,  This is also true of many current tickets where you are given a separate piece of paper for each portion. 

 

If you wanted to catch out somebody travelling out of sequence, you'd have to ask to see the return half on the outward journey, not the other way round.

With the new bog roll QR code tickets i’m sure this would be a very easy catch.. the scan should be able to check an out of sequence use…

 

That is of course, if they continue selling returns, there seems to be a push towards single tickets.

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Yes agreed although this messes with your head after a while and hypothetical anyway as i won't be doing it!

 

When travelling back "on reverse" you would be using the outbound after the return. If the return had already been clipped when used on the first leg and they asked to see both portions, which technically they can on an outbound leg, you'd get caught out. 

Not if you cant find it like I did the other week…

 

after the 125 Group railtour, I bought a return from Nottingham to London accidentally, when I meant to buy a single…. Ok a £3.50 mistake I can live with.

However I only spotted this on the train, as I had left the return half back from London in the machine, because the passenger infront of me made the same mistake of leaving his return half of his trip to Sheffield in the machine and i’d picked that up, in addition to my London outward amongst the various cc ticket receipts.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[adb968008]

On 11/11/2023 at 08:14, Hal Nail said:

When I travel up to London from home, I usually get a return to Clapham, which is cheaper than the ticket into zone 1. I then use an oyster (contactless) and would need to do multiple trips before I'd got anywhere near the incremental cost of a travelcard (£14 more, typical oyster fare c£2)

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding? My fares may not be typical.

 

Off topic but an off peak day return from home to Clapham is c£30 but an anytime return from Clapham to mine is c£21. Is it permitted to buy the cheaper one, which you can from a machine, and just use the tickets in reverse order? I can't actually see anything in the conditions that says you can't.

Whats the price of a 30 day return ?

 

You could just 1 way to Clapham,, buy your return ticket from Clapham, and then use them in correct sequence as they are intended from that point onwards, buy a new return every night, instead of every morning.

 

Theres no restriction on whats considered outward to being tied to your home address.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[Hal Nail]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Whats the price of a 30 day return ?

Even more and I'm generally doing one off trips. I just make a point of going less often so they lose out on what I'd have happily spent if the tickets were the same both ways! little things and all that...

 

It's a first world problem. To be honest the price is the least of the concerns. I'm happy if I do a run without a missing member of train crew, track circuit failure, broken point or tree on the single line!

Edited November 13, 2023 by Hal Nail

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Whats the price of a 30 day return ?

 

You could just 1 way to Clapham,, buy your return ticket from Clapham, and then use them in correct sequence as they are intended from that point onwards, buy a new return every night, instead of every morning.

 

Theres no restriction on whats considered outward to being tied to your home address.

 

 

Are they available to/from Clapham Jcn beyond the former NSE area?  (They used to be barred within that area - tickets valid for one day only)

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Whats the price of a 30 day return ?

 

You could just 1 way to Clapham,, buy your return ticket from Clapham, and then use them in correct sequence as they are intended from that point onwards, buy a new return every night, instead of every morning.

 

Theres no restriction on whats considered outward to being tied to your home address.

 

 

Depending on the period of validity of the ticket.

[Northmoor]

On 08/11/2023 at 22:32, adb968008 said:

those 45p increases do add up though, 12 million would add £4.8mn to tfl revenues… about the same as this consultation and negotiation cost would be my bet, by the time this is done and dusted, taking into accounts discounts etc I bet this is a net zero.

At £100/hr (more than most TfL staff would be charged out at) that would be 48000 FTE hours, so about 25 people full time for a year.  Even the DfT and TfL couldn't combine to over staff the job to that degree.