CCW Wooden Gresley Coaches

[Rosie Taylor]

Something occured to me recently, as I ordered the transfers and paint for lining - I've no idea how much this project has cost. This isn't something I usually think about (ignorance is bliss), and is rarely mentioned in topics here...I think with good reason. This is a hobby to be enjoyed, and looking at how much your relaxing pastime is costing you isn't that appealing. However, with all the pieces now collected, I had to satisfy my curiosity and so made up this spreadsheet. A lot of items (especially transfers, paint etc) are bought in "bulk", ie not just for one coach, so I've calculated both the amount I originally paid and the cost once broken down "per coach"...

 

 

Wow, that's...quite a lot. Almost £70 per coach! Each individual component is quite cheap, but they do all add up. And of course, I got the base coaches free and had a few detail parts already in my collection. Interesting to think I could have the best RTR coach going for less than that, or a high-quality kit!

 

Does this change how I feel though, about the project? Not at all. I'll end up with something very unique, and of course money cant buy the enjoyment and reward of the finished model. If anything, this exercise has been very helpful - I have more CCW coaches (as previously mentioned) that I'll be tackling at some future date, and hopefully I can use what I've learned to save money where I can. I've been getting to grips with resin 3d printing recently and I suspect I may turn to that for detail parts and even bogies, which will make considerable savings.

 

However, I still need to finish the current coaches, of which I'll post more about soon.

[Citadel]

At the end of the day you have the satisfaction of having done a truly outstanding job -  I don't think you can put a monetary value on that and really look forward to seeing the finished coach.  I really like the fact it isn't a 'high quality kit', feel your coaches have far greater integrity and hopefully in the case of the ones above a degree of sentimental value.

 

Having just spent the evening painting frosted glass lavatory windows for a couple of LNWR 42' composites sense the other issue is putting a value on the time spent - I always turn that round and explain to Mrs Citadel that imagine the cost if I was to take up skydiving or waterskiing(!)

Edited March 15 by Citadel

[Bucoops]

13 hours ago, Rosie Taylor said:

Something occured to me recently, as I ordered the transfers and paint for lining - I've no idea how much this project has cost. This isn't something I usually think about (ignorance is bliss), and is rarely mentioned in topics here...I think with good reason. This is a hobby to be enjoyed, and looking at how much your relaxing pastime is costing you isn't that appealing. However, with all the pieces now collected, I had to satisfy my curiosity and so made up this spreadsheet. A lot of items (especially transfers, paint etc) are bought in "bulk", ie not just for one coach, so I've calculated both the amount I originally paid and the cost once broken down "per coach"...

 

 

Wow, that's...quite a lot. Almost £70 per coach! Each individual component is quite cheap, but they do all add up. And of course, I got the base coaches free and had a few detail parts already in my collection. Interesting to think I could have the best RTR coach going for less than that, or a high-quality kit!

 

Does this change how I feel though, about the project? Not at all. I'll end up with something very unique, and of course money cant buy the enjoyment and reward of the finished model. If anything, this exercise has been very helpful - I have more CCW coaches (as previously mentioned) that I'll be tackling at some future date, and hopefully I can use what I've learned to save money where I can. I've been getting to grips with resin 3d printing recently and I suspect I may turn to that for detail parts and even bogies, which will make considerable savings.

 

However, I still need to finish the current coaches, of which I'll post more about soon.

 

The parts to build a Comet coach are £60+ and you need wheels, couplings, paint and transfers. Possibly the interior as well, not sure about that.

[Rosie Taylor]

12 hours ago, Citadel said:

At the end of the day you have the satisfaction of having done a truly outstanding job -  I don't think you can put a monetary value on that and really look forward to seeing the finished coach.  I really like the fact it isn't a 'high quality kit', feel your coaches have far greater integrity and hopefully in the case of the ones above a degree of sentimental value.

 

Having just spent the evening painting frosted glass lavatory windows for a couple of LNWR 42' composites sense the other issue is putting a value on the time spent - I always turn that round and explain to Mrs Citadel that imagine the cost if I was to take up skydiving or waterskiing(!)

 

Thank you. This is my thinking, that no amount of money can replace the work that goes into a project, and these coaches will have a unique "story" to them. In 30 years time they'll be a century old!

 

35 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

The parts to build a Comet coach are £60+ and you need wheels, couplings, paint and transfers. Possibly the interior as well, not sure about that.

 

I do love a good, high fidelity kit (I have 2x Comet Pullman Mk1's waiting in a box), and the total costs, comparisons and trade-offs between such kits, the vintage CCW coaches and RTR models are interesting and worth thinking about. Your comment reminded me that I hadn't even considered interior for my coaches! Oops...

[Rosie Taylor]

I've been distracted by other things recently so progress has slowed, but here's a little update to show I've not given up! Something that has needed doing for a while is adding the door vents - I put these off as couldn't decide what to do regarding the door windows being too short, in the end I've decided to accept the compromise rather than try and recut the delicate coach sides in place. The vents make a big difference to the sides and really help define the doors.

 

I've started thinking about the underframe, although I won't actually attach any details until work on the upper body is complete as these will be quite delicate. All are from MJT components/Dart Castings, and are very good. I received only one set of battery boxes when I thought the product listing was for two (in my defense, the wording was a little confusing). I'd like to highlight the excellent customer service from Nigel at Dart Castings; when I emailed to complain he sent out another set for free, despite it being my error!

 

There wasn't much flash, and a half hour with a file and sanding stick and all the pieces are ready - batteries, brakegear, dynamos (the truss rods aren't pictured). I couldn't resist folding up the etch for the battery box supports, it makes a lovely little piece which will really add a lot of fidelity to the underframe.

 

The truss rods look like they may present a problem, as the gap between chassis sides is much less than the truss rods expect (being made from thick wood). I'll cross that bridge in the next few days...

[Rosie Taylor]

I've been ticking off a few odd jobs on the coaches this week, especially focused on each end. First was epoxying the fabricated bufferbeams in place, using masking tape to make it look nice (although, will likely never be seen)!

 

 

Next was using 2-part Milliput epoxy filler. I noticed at some point when fitting and refitting the coach roofs one of the joins had opened up slightly, so I taped it off and forced putty into the gap. Once dry I sanded it back smooth and I think it'll look a lot better once painted. You can also see the rainstrips in place, I'll cover them and the nameboard brackets in the next post.

 

 

There was also some repair needed to the solebars; the thin wood had broken off in places. Some was my fault, some were like that to begin with. It's not perfect, and still doesn't match with prototype, but I think will blend in well and will be partially hidden by footboards. Again, epoxy putty was used and then sanded back.

 

 

Final use of the Milliput putty is to create the strange "step" shapes at each end of the roofs. I marked and taped off their size and position based off drawings and photos, and pushed small blobs of filler (roughly shaped) into place. I'd made a mistake mixing it though - I had used one part more than the other (it has to be 50/50), and as a result it was still soft 24 hours later and just pulled off when sanding. I've reapplied (carefully mixed) and will sand the filler to final shape.

[Rosie Taylor]

I've been playing with my new soldering iron and sticking bits of brass together - I made up an impression of the nameboard brackets to go on each side of the roof, from brass wire and folded brass strip. I marked out a simple guide on tape so they'd all be consistent. It worked well enough but, of course, singed my new cutting mat.

 

 

They were too small and fiddly to curve to the roof profile as I'd hoped, so I marked and cut out small insets into the wooden roof using a very small chisel - I think these are from Tamiya, small black metal chisels in 1mm and 2mm, and I don't know how I ever managed without them.

 

As with a lot of the details, these are slightly coarse and only representative of the real thing rather than strictly accurate, but I think they sit well with the rest of the model.

 

 

In that vein, I mocked up something that looks vaguely like a filler cap - at least they're in the right place! I used brass tube rather than styrene as it was a more suitable diameter. Once the glue dries I'll file it back almost flush. I will add handrails to the roof but much later (after priming, etc).

 

 

I'm starting to think about the alarm pulls/tell-tales, and am baffled by how to put the etch together. It didn't come with instructions (as mentioned on the Wizard Models product page) but I'm only now realising what a problem that is. Can anyone shed any light? Also, from prototype photos some ends have the apparatus and some ends dont - were these tell-tales only at one end (and if so, which)? Any help would be much appreciated...

 

[31A]

4 minutes ago, Rosie Taylor said:

Also, from prototype photos some ends have the apparatus and some ends dont - were these tell-tales only at one end (and if so, which)?

 

Yes, they were only fitted at one end of the coach.  I don't know whether there was any hard and fast rule as to which end they were fitted and can only suggest looking at photos or drawings.  

 

This may help:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lnerca/15309983385/

 

Lots of pictures of LNER coach details on that Flickr site!

 

Several pictures of LNER coaches on this site as well:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/albums/72157603653607671/

 

[Rosie Taylor]

11 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Yes, they were only fitted at one end of the coach.  I don't know whether there was any hard and fast rule as to which end they were fitted and can only suggest looking at photos or drawings.  

 

This may help:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lnerca/15309983385/

 

Lots of pictures of LNER coach details on that Flickr site!

 

Several pictures of LNER coaches on this site as well:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/albums/72157603653607671/

 

Thanks, very helpful. I have drawings but that detail isn't included - I can cross reference photos and just copy what they show

[Bucoops]

No tell tale on full brakes is one that traps people sometimes.

[Rosie Taylor]

No I haven't given up, and yes it is taking me a long time to finish building just 2 coaches! My excuses, as mentioned before, are that I often have a few projects on the go at once to keep motivation up, and I'm the parent of a 2 year old...

 

We've been decorating for the past 2 weeks so my modelling station has now been taken out from under the dust sheets and I've reaquainted myself with where I was with the project. There's actually not that much left to do! I managed to prime, mask and airbrush the roofs, and am very pleased with the result. I used Precision Paints "LNER Roof Grey" which I suspect is for locos, but I thinned it a lot and applied very thin coats over the grey primer until it looked right. With final weathering I think it will be just what I want.

 

 

(Please ignore the childs toys in the background - they're not involved with the build)

 

 

I've also started painting details at each end and the underframe (I used Tamiya Acrylic Linoleum Deck Brown, it kind of matches the description in Nick Campling's "Historic Carriage Drawings" of "Teak coloured paint, similar to milk-chocolate", but more importantly looks right when dry.

 

I also got excited to try the lining/bow-pen, so couldn't resist trying some test lines with some (incorrect) paint. It's an old drawing set I found second-hand online and the bowpen works great now I cleaned it up and honed the tips. It'll take some more practice but I'm looking forward to lining the coaches.

 

 

Finally, I started applying the transfers from Fox - I love their transfers and they're always so easy to use. It's really coming together!

 

 

Edited May 11 by Rosie Taylor

[Rosie Taylor]

Trials and tribulations with the lining-pen, but eventual success! Using it reminded me of learning to solder; lots of frustration and changing different variables, before giving up, taking time to refocus and eventually it all "clicking".

 

I mentioned I'd honed the lining-pen when I bought it, and could get good consistent lines with one type of (wrong colour) paint. When I tried my intended colour (Humbrol Gloss No.7), I just couldn't get the colour to flow. With a lot of frustration I managed two shaky, uneven lines before giving up for the night.

 

 

I was almost certain it was the paint consistency, as that was the only difference between success and failure. I left the tinlet open overnight to thicken it up, and carefully rehoned the pen just in case. I tried again...and the paint still wouldn't flow! In desperation, I tried thinning the paint a little (despite reading that, counter-intuitively you want thicker paint for lining)...and it worked!

 

 

I must have stumbled upon the magic consistency that works for me and my pen. It's a couple large drops of paint off a cocktail stick (very scientific), and a drop of my chosen enamel thinners. The end result was I was able to "successfully" line one side of each coach, using @MikeTrice's excellent video tutorial as a guide.

 

 

Is it perfect? Far from it - the lines, when viewed up close, are a bit too thick and a little rough in places - but I'm very happy with how it looks, especially from a normal viewing distance. I have the reward of "cracking" how to use the lining-pen, and the excitement of seeing the coach really come together. I'm sure as I practice more with lining over the years I'll look back at this first attempt with a more critical eye, but for now I'm very content with this shaky first step.

[Rosie Taylor]

Now the lining is finished I can start on the more delicate parts of the model, that I didn't want to damage while handling. Here are the pile of prepared pieces from Dart Castings, which go together very well.

 

 

The only issue is they're meant for Dart Castings own underframe, and the wooden solebars on my coaches are much thicker. Luckily, wood is easily cut and chiseled to make room.

 

 

As I started fitting the non-truss components (that I'd assembled and primed earlier) I realised the battery boxes would also sit too "low" - wooden chassis are much thicker than brass! Using drawings and measuring against my coach with the calipers I reckoned they needed almost 1.5mm removing, so out came the big file.

 

 

After a lot of rearranging and reference to prototype photos and more drawings, this is the layout I chose. Not strictly correct, but I think it looks about right, especially as all this will only be viewed from the side. Remember as well that I have a little less room (width-wise) to play with due to the thick wood solebars. The final outer trusses are yet to be added, as is the securing straps(?) for the battery boxes.

 

 

And all of a sudden...they look like actual coaches! It's getting very exciting now. Next is more painting (for the underframes and little details) and fitting door handles, handrails, couplings, vacuum pipes, etc. Oh and the glazing!

 

 

[Chas Levin]

Wonderful project! Just found this thread and it's so great to see vintage kits being built and being built so well, instead of languishing in a drawer.

I also entirely agree with your policy of enhancing with modern (or reasonably modern!) detailing but keeping the general vintage feel - terrific! 😄

[Rosie Taylor]

On 28/05/2024 at 10:41, Chas Levin said:

Wonderful project! Just found this thread and it's so great to see vintage kits being built and being built so well, instead of languishing in a drawer.

I also entirely agree with your policy of enhancing with modern (or reasonably modern!) detailing but keeping the general vintage feel - terrific! 😄

Thank you! I've been enjoying the project a lot and so it's good to see so many others are as well 🙂

[Rosie Taylor]

I've been finishing some last little details - first was to add the brass handrails and door handles (I draw the line at adding the hinges!). Using my trusty Bill Bedford jig I bent up enough handrails from 0.45mm wire - a little overscale but looks more correct than 0.3mm.

 

 

I also added vacuum pipes along one side of each carriage and footboards, both made from styrene and painted an appropriate colour. You can see I also added the door handles - "Tee door handles" from London Road Models that I found in my spares box. They look a tiny bit too big, but they're beautiful little parts. The brass really "pops" and adds a lot to the coaches.

 

 

The handrails inside the corridor were also brass wire, superglued in place a little crudely (you can see from these photos I haven't trimmed them yet, obviously they wont cover the doors). I'm being a little rough with the interiors as I wont be finishing them for quite a while, the plan is to do them when I get round to building the other CCW coaches I now own. I did paint the inside window frames black to hide the thickness of the wood, which works quite well when viewed from the outside.

 

 

Last was to finally fix my chosen couplings, "Kadees" to go with the rest of my stock. They actually suit the Gresley Coaches well as they dont look disimilar from the buckeye prototype.

 

 

And...thats actually the coaches almost finished! I have a little bit of paint to touch up, then it's onto some subtle weathering and varnishing, before fitting the windows.

[Rosie Taylor]

As a little diversion before I finish, I've been going through my growing collection of CCW coaches and have a few in need of a home. Some of these I've received as part of a bigger lot, or bought second hand without knowing enough details (in my defense, they were cheap!). The end result is I have some coach kits for prototypes I've no interest in modelling (ie, not Gresley Teak coaches or Pullmans). I thought I'd check here first to see if anyone would want them, if not I'll try and sell them online and donate the money to a worthwhile cause.

 

The coaches are (descriptions taken from the original CCW catalogue):

- GWR 1938 Riviera(?) 3rd Diner Vestibule, unassembled

- GWR 1938 Riviera(?) 1st Restaurant Car, unassembled

- LMS Stanier 1st/3rd Composite, assembled

- (a strange one) Isle of Man Bogie Brake-end Coach, unassembled, 7mm narrow gauge

 

All are believed to be "complete" kits (but need wheels, underframe etc) and are all 4mm/00 gauge except the Isle of Man oddity.

 

Message me if you're interested in joining the fun!

 

 

[uax6]

I find that I use the bow-compasses most for lining. By replacing the pointed pin with a bit of stout wire, you can offset from an edge, and get a neat line. Very useful for lining around splashers, and for valances as well. 

 

I have quite a few sets of bow pens, and find that the older ones (with ebony or bone handles) are often the best. 

 

Its always quite impressive how lining lifts the model, and these looking really impressive now, well done!

 

Andy G

[Rosie Taylor]

5 hours ago, uax6 said:

I find that I use the bow-compasses most for lining. By replacing the pointed pin with a bit of stout wire, you can offset from an edge, and get a neat line. Very useful for lining around splashers, and for valances as well. 

 

I have quite a few sets of bow pens, and find that the older ones (with ebony or bone handles) are often the best. 

 

Its always quite impressive how lining lifts the model, and these looking really impressive now, well done!

 

Andy G

Thanks! Im fairly proud of what I managed for my first try, I'm looking forward to trying more ambitious lining. I have a couple locos that need doing, I'll use your suggestion about the compasses...