How often were route restrictions ignored during WW2 and what were the noted biggest examples?

[kevinlms]

19 hours ago, Edwin_m said:

It is arguable that one cause of the Dolphin Junction accident in 1941 was the use of a borrowed LMS engine with the driving position on the left and no ATC equipment.  I don't know if there was a formal restriction on this sort of operation but it probably wouldn't have happened in peacetime.  

Ah, this is the accident that prevented 8F 8293, from being sent on W.D. service. It was built as a W.D.  locomotive (407), but since wasn't required after the Fall of France, so loaned to the LMS who gave it a temporary number (8293). The LMS in turned loaned it to the GWR, where it was damaged and so not sent.

 

Was there a ban on non-ATC fitted locos being used on the main line? Would have thought that a crew driving on the wrong side, would be extra careful.

Edited November 20, 2023 by kevinlms
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[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Any rule or restriction made by a man with a big hat can be overruled or revised by a man with a larger hat, or in some cases temporarily by a specifically nominated man with a slightly smaller hat. That was the vertically integrated command and control structure which existed within BR regions and their Big Four predecessors. As an example I once closed a signalbox with a train still in section but I needed the express permission of the ROM to do it, which at 23.00 on a Saturday night amused him no end. (Those familiar with Colin McKeevor either in person or by reputation can imagine what a bum clenching conversation that was for a 20yr old.)

 

The 1988 and earlier Rule Books were full of "where specially authorised" and "unless specially authorised" qualifications, the ultimate authority in BR days usually being the Regional Operations Manager or Regional Civil Engineer. Similar provisions existed before BR. 

 

In the case of route restrictions they were there generally for two reasons - weight and loading gauge. The first can usually be relaxed, the trade off being shorter asset life or an increased inspection and maintenance schedule. The latter is harder to relax - if it doesn't fit then it doesn't fit no matter how large one's hat. 

 

 

My comment emoji results from having come across the said Colin McKeevor (although maybe i should have been more sympathetic?).

 

The  'where specially authorised' bit always used to make me chuckle because in the overwhelming majority of cases the 'necessary authority' appeared ina Notice, or such things as a Carriage Working programmes, or various other publications, which were in many cases never seen by the name printed at the bottom until after they were issued.

 

In most cases something like the switching out you mention would be referred to the Regional (operations) 'On Call Office who would make  the necessary decision without reference up to the ROM; things were only referred up in respect of specific serious incidents such as running line collisions and staff/passenger fatalities but the latter depended very much on the circumstances.  The four of us on the Western who - in its final three years - were the Regional On Call Officers all had ground level experience of some sort plus we were, obviously, all qualified in Rules & Regs so could deal with most things Control threw at us.  As the shift DCCs in Control also knew what our normal managerial responsibilities were they would sometimes ignore who was currently On Call and go to the one with the expert knowledge/responsibilty.   And for loco and freight vehicle Route Availability, among other things, that happened to be me - who, they quickly, was not the kind of bloke to authorise short cuts to save somebody having to do their job properly.

[john new]

17 hours ago, melmerby said:

It got father than that.

It was a service to Leeds and they might just've got there!

 

WR engines were only normally worked as far North as Nottingham Victoria, where an engine change would take place.

The relief engine didn't turn up so the crew were told to carry on to Sheffield, which was the absolute northern limit for WR locos and still no relief so they were persuaded to carry on.

It hit the platform edges at at least one station on route, including Penistone.

It got to Hudderfield where it was immediately impounded and sent to Hillhouses while a safe route back to the Western as an out of gauge load were worked out.

 

On one NELPG tour in either the late 70s or very early 80s I know the K1(62005) caught the platform at Hartlepool (IIRC) enough to slightly scrape the left hand cylinder cover. Track must have crept as it was a route it had used before and after without problems. Regarding the Grange incident my memory may be wrong but didn't it also ping off quite a lot of the station valencing? 

[number6]

Sort of vaguely related - I'm sure I read somewhere of during wartime of trains being loaded one way with coal and return with Iron ore. No problem with that until it was realised that they were being fully loaded with iron ore which far exceeded their weight capacity and would explain the high failure rate on the wagons which was what had initially alerted control to a problem. I think 21T hoppers? - someone else might know... has a whiff of grandad drove the Flying Scotman about it but I can imagine in dark days of the 40s that you got the maximum you could out of whatever tools you had for the job? 

[The Johnster]

During wartime, there are all sorts of emergency rules and regulations, and (I imagine) a good chance of conflict between military and civil authorities.  If there was a situation where the only loco available to haul a train which had been stated by a military authority to be essential because of 'exingencies of war', 'vital to the war effort', and such, but the loco was overweight/out of gauge, whatever, and both military and railway authorities dug their heels in, what would be the outcome?  Don't forget one could in theory be in serious, I mean firing squad serious, trouble for any action that might be construed as obstructing the war effort, and the military had authority to 'commandeer' property, equipment, manpower, whatever they though they needed.  When backs are to the wall, the people with the guns will usually win the argument...

 

Clearly in practice common sense mostly prevailed, and I expect both 'sides' had liason people to smooth and expidite things.  But the system was clearly under enormous strain and could not possibly have operated as efficiently or in such order as it did in peacetime, so it is inevitable that such situatios must have arisen.  I heard a story when I was at Canton in the 70s from a driver who'd been a passed  cleaner in those days; as usual in the manpower shortages he did very little cleaning and a lot of firing!  He related that traffic was so heavy in the spring of 1944 when the traffic buildup to the invasion was going flat out that he'd taken some nine hours to work a train from Cardiff Tidal to STJ  (their destination was actually Bristol West Depot, but they never got that far), where he and his driver were relieved by Tunnel men and sent home.  Booking on the next day they were told to travel to STJ and relieve the sameTunnel men on the same train, which had moved up the queue on the permissive block a little.  On this second day they got as far as Pilning up loop having had a struggle to drag the overloaded engine, a clapped out 43xx, out of the tunnel, before they had to drop the fire, which was clinkered up solid.  This is where they abandoned ship and handed over to a Bristol crew.

 

This was the reality of wartime working, going nowhere fast.  Booked diagrams were impossible to keep to, everybody signed on duty on the understanding that they were there for the duration of the job irrespective of how long it took, and you were expected to make your own arrangements for food and tea; 24 hours continuous duty was not uncommon and chances were you'd be needed back on the premises as soon as you'd had your 12 hours rest.  No doubt it was the same in other jobs in those days, but there can be few occupations so adept at stranding in the middle of nowhere for hours at a time as the railway.  If you were fighting in the army, at least the catering corps followed the action so you were never too far away from your food (this comment doesn't necessarily count in actual battles), but the railway was more about deprivation and starvations.  Some of the stories I heard from men who had been accommodated in railway hostels were pretty grim; hot-bedding, cockroaches, fleas, rats, damp, pneumonia.  At least at Westbury (I was told) the food was good, but there was never enough of it because of rationing...

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 20/11/2023 at 18:08, number6 said:

Sort of vaguely related - I'm sure I read somewhere of during wartime of trains being loaded one way with coal and return with Iron ore. No problem with that until it was realised that they were being fully loaded with iron ore which far exceeded their weight capacity and would explain the high failure rate on the wagons which was what had initially alerted control to a problem. I think 21T hoppers? - someone else might know... has a whiff of grandad drove the Flying Scotman about it but I can imagine in dark days of the 40s that you got the maximum you could out of whatever tools you had for the job? 

I believe that some of the original wartime MOT Hoppers were built with thicker plates so they could be used for iron ore and other stone traffic. They were still only supposed to carry the same maximum weight as coal. Ex-revenue wagons used by the civils were also abused in later years, the maximum weight of wet spoil from a deep dig was reached with about what would fit in a 3-plank. 

 

In a similar vein, it was not unknown for ex-LNER wooden hoppers to turn up on ore trains through Snow Hill. I don't know if they were coal or iron ore ones. There is photographic evidence of one there c1954, and others at Leamington 1949 - 1962. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 20/11/2023 at 20:57, The Johnster said:

If you were fighting in the army, at least the catering corps followed the action so you were never too far away from your food (this comment doesn't necessarily count in actual battles), but the railway was more about deprivation and starvations. 

First lesson from my Grandad in New Street mess room on the day I joined BR S&T - never get separated from your dinner and your overcoat. He had been in the army in France in WW1 then immediately on leaving joined the LNWR Signal Department so I knew he was speaking from experience.

[KeithMacdonald]

On 19/11/2023 at 11:59, adb968008 said:

Caerphilly, is that the welsh translation of Carefully then ?

 

On 19/11/2023 at 12:10, Nearholmer said:

Just a cheesy joke on my part.

 

Did the Cheddar Valley line have a similar restriction?