Stroud MR narrow gauge gasworks railway end tipper

[Dunalastair]

There was an interesting wagon tipp(l)er on the Midland branch to Stroud serving the gas works which I am looking at for a static diorama (though I may try to make the tipping action work). Presumably the overhead crane rail was for delivering goods which might not appreciate being tipped. The narrow gauge apparently used Ruston and possibly Muir Hill locos. I have ordered a Hornby 'Great Mountain' end tipping wagon - a hopefully not altogether unlikely anthracite supplier to Stroud, though acknowledging the shortcomings of the 'cupboard door' design and the crudity of the mechanism. But at least I will not have to butcher a conventional wagon to make the end door swivel.

 

 

 

https://www.stroudiecentral.co.uk/dudbridge-to-stroud-cycle-track-and-gas-works/

 

The image is said to come from 'The Nailsworth and Stroud Branch' by Colin Maggs which apparently has an account of the gasworks NG railway. Is anybody here with a copy able to say how much the book says about the NG? I'm loathe to order (yet another) book only to find only a page or so of text on NG and 150 pages on SG.

 

My question relates to the tipping mechanism - how might it have worked? Searching the forum shows a range of end-tipping gantry images, but the wagons mostly seem to be lifted on their wheels  The photo is not very clear, but it LOOKS as if the tipping platform does not include rails - the wheels SEEM to extend below it. I'm guessing that the platform lifted between the rails and engaged with the wagon axles rather than the wheel treads. Is this plausible?

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

[Paul H Vigor]

2 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

There was an interesting wagon tipp(l)er on the Midland branch to Stroud serving the gas works which I am looking at for a static diorama (though I may try to make the tipping action work). Presumably the overhead crane rail was for delivering goods which might not appreciate being tipped. The narrow gauge apparently used Ruston and possibly Muir Hill locos. I have ordered a Hornby 'Great Mountain' end tipping wagon - a hopefully not altogether unlikely anthracite supplier to Stroud, though acknowledging the shortcomings of the 'cupboard door' design and the crudity of the mechanism. But at least I will not have to butcher a conventional wagon to make the end door swivel.

 

 

 

https://www.stroudiecentral.co.uk/dudbridge-to-stroud-cycle-track-and-gas-works/

 

The image is said to come from 'The Nailsworth and Stroud Branch' by Colin Maggs which apparently has an account of the gasworks NG railway. Is anybody here with a copy able to say how much the book says about the NG? I'm loathe to order (yet another) book only to find only a page or so of text on NG and 150 pages on SG.

 

My question relates to the tipping mechanism - how might it have worked? Searching the forum shows a range of end-tipping gantry images, but the wagons mostly seem to be lifted on their wheels  The photo is not very clear, but it LOOKS as if the tipping platform does not include rails - the wheels SEEM to extend below it. I'm guessing that the platform lifted between the rails and engaged with the wagon axles rather than the wheel treads. Is this plausible?

 

Any suggestions?

 

 

Certainly looks like a hydraulic lifting cylinder engaging with and lifting the rear axle. Presumably the front axle is clamped in some way at two points but still able to rotate to tip the load?

 

https://www.stroudlocalhistorysociety.org.uk/

 

MIke Smith gave a talk on the Stroud Gasworks Tramway in 2022? He may be able to shed some light on how the tippler functioned? 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Paul H Vigor
to add information

[Dunalastair]

I have read elsewhere that it was a ram. Given that there were powered capstans on the SG siding, hydraulic power my have operated these as well - though where the accumulator might have been I'm not sure.

 

The video with the original link (above) shows the capstans and the foundations of the tip dock. They are described as electric, but that pipe could well be hydraulic.

 

 

The video also has a rather indistinct image of a NG train - might that be the Muir Hill loco? There were loops at either end of the line, so the loco could run around the train.

 

[Paul H Vigor]

3 minutes ago, Dunalastair said:

I have read elsewhere that it was a ram. Given that there were powered capstans on the SG siding, hydraulic power my have operated these as well - though where the accumulator might have been I'm not sure.

 

The video with the original link (above) shows the capstans and the foundations of the tip dock. They are described as electric, but that pipe could well be hydraulic.

 

 

The video also has a rather indistinct image of a NG train - might that be the Muir Hill loco? There were loops at either end of the line, so the loco could run around the train.

 

https://www.stroudlocalhistorysociety.org.uk/

 

One Mike Smith gave a talk on the gasworks tramway in 2022? He may be able to shed some light on how it functioned??

[Dunalastair]

Good suggestion - I have now left an enquiry on their website.

[Dunalastair]

Peering more closely at the wagon on the tipper, what I thought was 'Barton Main' might instead be 'Darton Main', a pit near Barnsley. While there is a model available in the style of the nearer wagons, that nearer the loading hopper (looking rather overloaded) seems to be in the style of the wagon at Stroud. 

 

https://www.darton.org.uk/index-7.html

 

The nearer wagons specifically say 'gas and steam coal', so that might fit. Barnsley is a long way from Stroud, but might have had more miles on the MR than the mainly GWR haul from South Wales. 

[Paul H Vigor]

16 minutes ago, Dunalastair said:

Peering more closely at the wagon on the tipper, what I thought was 'Barton Main' might instead be 'Darton Main', a pit near Barnsley. While there is a model available in the style of the nearer wagons, that nearer the loading hopper (looking rather overloaded) seems to be in the style of the wagon at Stroud. 

 

https://www.darton.org.uk/index-7.html

 

The nearer wagons specifically say 'gas and steam coal', so that might fit. Barnsley is a long way from Stroud, but might have had more miles on the MR than the mainly GWR haul from South Wales. 

Some coals were more suitable for gasmaking than others??

 

There is also Forest of Dean coal - via GWR/MR Joint? 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Paul H Vigor
to add information

[Fat Controller]

Looking at the photo of the wagon being tippled, might I venture that it might be lifted by a cable (or cables) attached to the left-hand headstock? 

[Dunalastair]

16 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Some coals were more suitable for gasmaking than others??

 

There is also Forest of Dean coal - via GWR/MR Joint? 

 

Yes, not all coal is equal. I believe the gasworks went for specific coal for particular processes - the 'water gas' process I think favoured anthracite. See e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gas and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_gasification

 

I don't know much about coal from the Forest - an account of FofD collieries suggests that the Coleford Highdelf seam might have produced suitable material - but Forest collieries were often small and quantities might have been limited.

 

 

[Dunalastair]

7 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Looking at the photo of the wagon being tippled, might I venture that it might be lifted by a cable (or cables) attached to the left-hand headstock? 

 

Useful suggestion, thankyou, but in that case why have the ram - if that what it is under the gantry. 

[Paul H Vigor]

15 minutes ago, Dunalastair said:

 

Useful suggestion, thankyou, but in that case why have the ram - if that what it is under the gantry. 

https://collections.museumsvictoria.com.au/items/792834

 

A 1930s hydraulic accumulator. Such plant may have been housed on the gasworks site and piped to the tippler?

[Dunalastair]

Alamy (so I cannot directly link the image) has a rather schematic engraving of an end tipping wagon whereby the ram engages with the rear axle (just how is not clear) but the wagon simply pivots about the other axle, and there is no platform under the wagon.

[Dunalastair]

3 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

 

A 1930s hydraulic accumulator. Such plant may have been housed on the gasworks site and piped to the tippler?

 

 

It was some distance from the gasworks, but that seems most likely - hydraulic power was after all piped around London by the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Hydraulic_Power_Company. I remember having an indirect involvement when the pipes were later used for fibre optic cables.

[bécasse]

3 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

There was an interesting wagon tipp(l)er on the Midland branch to Stroud serving the gas works which I am looking at for a static diorama (though I may try to make the tipping action work). Presumably the overhead crane rail was for delivering goods which might not appreciate being tipped. The narrow gauge apparently used Ruston and possibly Muir Hill locos. I have ordered a Hornby 'Great Mountain' end tipping wagon - a hopefully not altogether unlikely anthracite supplier to Stroud, though acknowledging the shortcomings of the 'cupboard door' design and the crudity of the mechanism. But at least I will not have to butcher a conventional wagon to make the end door swivel.

 

 

 

The image is said to come from 'The Nailsworth and Stroud Branch' by Colin Maggs which apparently has an account of the gasworks NG railway. Is anybody here with a copy able to say how much the book says about the NG? I'm loathe to order (yet another) book only to find only a page or so of text on NG and 150 pages on SG.

The book mentions it and gives the works nos. of the two R&H locos known to have worked there - 183725 and 244564. I certainly wouldn't buy the book just for that mention.

 

Incidentally I was the only passenger on the last scheduled train* on 27 May 1966 worked by D9500 itself. I was supposed to have a brake van permit but what awaited me at Stroud (ex-GW) when I arrived from Oxford to catch the train was a loco cab permit, not that I was complaining. There was an amusing sequel a couple of weeks later when a letter arrived from Bristol Division apologising for the fact that an error had been made - and refunding the fee I had paid!

 

* As was normal, a clearance train, worked by a 350hp shunter, ran the following week.

Edited November 22, 2023 by bécasse

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

'Great Mountain' end tipping wagon - a hopefully not altogether unlikely anthracite supplier to Stroud

 

Anthracite a most unlikely coal for delivery to a gasworks!

 

3 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

The nearer wagons specifically say 'gas and steam coal', so that might fit. Barnsley is a long way from Stroud, but might have had more miles on the MR than the mainly GWR haul from South Wales. 

 

Having discounted South Wales anthracite, it should nevertheless be pointed out that anthracite for the Stroud branch (for brewery use, perhaps) would quite probably come by the Midland route - Swansea Vale, Brecon, Hereford, Malvern direct to Ashchurch, or via Worcester...

 

Ian Pope's Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire (Lightmoor Press, 2006) p. 117, has a short article on the Stroud Gas Light & Coke Co., noting that until 1924 coal was brought in up the Stroudwater Navigation by the company's own Severn trow. That perhaps hints at coal coming from the Forest of Dean and indeed Ian Pope's article includes a photo of one of the company's wagons at Cannop Colliery, suggesting that that remained a source. However, the fleet of wagons the company acquired c. 1924 seems to have consisted of 12-ton 8-plank end-door wagons; the greater depth of 8-plank wagons does suggest that gas coal was being sourced from the Barnsley area, such coal being less dense than average. Pope mentions the tippler but gives no technical details.

 

It was not uncommon for gasworks to be supplied by water long after the arrival of the railway, since they were established well before the railway arrived, and hence on sites on the bank of a canal or navigable river. 

[Paul H Vigor]

2 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

Alamy (so I cannot directly link the image) has a rather schematic engraving of an end tipping wagon whereby the ram engages with the rear axle (just how is not clear) but the wagon simply pivots about the other axle, and there is no platform under the wagon.

I wonder if the front axle is lifted slightly clear of the running rails before tipping? Re engaging with the axle: a 'U'-shaped fitting on the end of the ram shaft might do the trick??

[Dunalastair]

30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Anthracite a most unlikely coal for delivery to a gasworks!

 

 

Now you have me confused (not that that is very difficult). 

 

"Addition of steam causes the water gas reaction to take place, with the production of CO + H2. Optimum amount is 0.4 to 0.5 kg H2O/kgC. The steam may be introduced, in metered proportions, into the air blast, or formed by passing the air through water in the base of the producer. The amount of water added is then controlled by the temperature of the water and air. This is called the “Blast Saturation Temperature”. Optimum blast saturation temperature is 60 to 65°C. This results in a gas of 5.6–5.8 MJ m−3, from coke or anthracite, and 6.4–6.6 MJ m−3 from high-volatile-matter coals."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/water-gas-reaction

 

The Great Mountain wagon model seems to advertise anthracite for malting, gas and stoves:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Producer_gas also mentions the use of anthracite.

 

So why would anthracite (always accepting that there may be different varieties) seem unlikely (again accepting that there are different gas production processes)?

[Paul H Vigor]

More West Welsh gas anthracite.

[Dunalastair]

I have been reading Ian Peaty's book on Brewery Railways, which makes mention of anthracite traffic flows from Swansea by the GW for malting and brewing, even as far as East Anglia. It also mentions its use for hop drying, so a versatile fuel - presumably because it was / is clean burning. The longest distance working was probably the Jellicoe anthracite trains to the Far North to supply the Navy battleships at Scapa Flow.

[Paul H Vigor]

November 17th 2022: The Gasworks Tramway

Mike Smith gave us a good explanation of how coal arriving on the LMS railway from Dudbridge to Stroud (now the cycle track) was transported to the gasworks. This was built by the canal, as that was how the coal was delivered originally. The railway was at a much higher level, so the coal had to go down a steep drop and over two branches of the river Frome on a tramway.

 

Sounds quite hopeful??

[Jeremy Cumberland]

7 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

I'm guessing that the platform lifted between the rails and engaged with the wagon axles rather than the wheel treads. Is this plausible?

That's what it looks like to me. Clearly both axles are lifted by the platform. I imagine that the wagon was pushed along the rails till it hit whatever it is on the platform that holds it in position, which I expect is some bars or a plate in front of the front axle (it doesn't appear to be against the buffers, at any rate).

 

The platform presumably has a simple hinge at the right, since it makes no sense for the right hand end to slide on something immediately below where the coal wlll be dropped, but what about the ram end? The cylinder appears to be fixed vertically, so how is the vertical motion of the ram converted to an arc, and what resists the sideways force when the ram is extended? I think there might be rather more to the mechanism than we can see.

 

The dangly bit from the gantry just above the wagon isn't a hoist. I don't know what it is, but there's another one at the far right.

[Dunalastair]

16 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

 

The platform presumably has a simple hinge at the right, since it makes no sense for the right hand end to slide on something immediately below where the coal wlll be dropped, but what about the ram end? The cylinder appears to be fixed vertically, so how is the vertical motion of the ram converted to an arc, and what resists the sideways force when the ram is extended? I think there might be rather more to the mechanism than we can see.

 

 

Good thinking. A closeup of the ram - if such it is - perhaps hints at a pivot at the bottom, so perhaps the fact it is vertical at this orientation is confusing me (again, not hard).

 

 

With a pivot, the design starts to look more like the arrangement on a tipper lorry, albeit with a longer ram.

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

I can't see anything that looks like a pivot at the bottom of the cylinder, and there appear to be two substantial cross pieces below the girders at the top of the cylinder which would prevent it from moving in the required direction. I assumed that they held the cylinder rigid, but they could support a pivot, which would make a far better arrangement.

[Paul H Vigor]

3 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

That's what it looks like to me. Clearly both axles are lifted by the platform. I imagine that the wagon was pushed along the rails till it hit whatever it is on the platform that holds it in position, which I expect is some bars or a plate in front of the front axle (it doesn't appear to be against the buffers, at any rate).

 

The platform presumably has a simple hinge at the right, since it makes no sense for the right hand end to slide on something immediately below where the coal wlll be dropped, but what about the ram end? The cylinder appears to be fixed vertically, so how is the vertical motion of the ram converted to an arc, and what resists the sideways force when the ram is extended? I think there might be rather more to the mechanism than we can see.

 

The dangly bit from the gantry just above the wagon isn't a hoist. I don't know what it is, but there's another one at the far right.

Begs the question: who was responsible for designing and building this engineering marvel? 

[Compound2632]

15 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

More West Welsh gas anthracite.

 

This firm are factors, not colliery owners. That's their catalogue on the side of the wagon. They're not saying they've got a single coal that is good for all these purposes. The anthracite and the gas coal are highly unlikely to be from the same colliery; if they were, they'd be from different seams.

 

Anthracite was favoured in brewing and the food industry on account of its low arsenic content compared to other coals.

 

The various online articles are probably written with North American anthracite in mind; my understanding is that Welsh anthracite is an especially pure, non-volatile type.

 

I was a bit puzzled by the apparent mention of making gas from coke. Coke was a by-product of the gas-making process, or gas was a by-product of the coking process, depending on one's pint of view.

 

The canard about the Jellicoe Specials conveying anthracite was put down on another thread just the other day; they conveyed steam coal from the eastern valleys; anthracite was from the western valleys.

 

Anyway, the wagon on the tippler does appear to be from Darton Main Colliery near Barnsley; that fits with the Gas Co.'s 8-plank wagons. So I think one can be confident that the Gas Co. had a contract with that colliery and perhaps others on that coalfield, which produced gas coal amongst other types, but probably also retained contracts with Cannop or other Forest of Dean collieries, harking back to pre-railway days.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Compound2632