Stroud MR narrow gauge gasworks railway end tipper

[doilum]

Food for thought. I had always assumed that the hydraulic ram lifted the rear axle in the manner of a trolley jack causing the wagon to pivot on the front axle. More research needed.

[Dunalastair]

Progress on two fronts today.

 

Postie delivered the Hornby wagon - at first sight not as crude as I thought it might be, and it is already missing the crude lever which appears in some photographs, so that Is one less task. Those tension lock couplings will need to come off though. They seem to be moulded integral with the underframe, so I will have to look out the razor saw.

 

And I had a long and interesting telephone conversation with Mike Smith, who has researched the gasworks railway, and hopes to write a piece for the IRS Record. Apparently the gas company produced a commemorative booklet illustrating the NG installation, a copy of which is in the County Record Office. He confirms much of what I had thought. There was electric power from the gasworks, but the hydraulic power was probably produced locally - possibly in a plant under the hopper (that might be a window in the side). The capstans were after all electric. He thinks that the ram did lift the axle, with the ram vertical. The hopper was built by ?Wests of Manchester (Miles Platting) despite there being a local company (Wallers) which made such equipment. The Muir Hill (the tractor with chains variety) might then have been supplied as part of a turnkey installation - MH were based at Old Trafford. The RHs came later, one new, the other second hand, maintained by the local garage. The last canal coal trow delivery was in 1941.  He thinks it unlikely that anything except coal was delivered over the NG, despite the overhead gantry. 

 

'Wests' might well have been West's Gas Improvement Co. Ltd who produced this advertisement in 1949 to commemorate the centenary of the magazine "Gas Journal",

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36844288@N00/51890140790

 

[Dunalastair]

The approach at Berkhamsted gasworks makes an interesting contrast to Stroud. Horse instead of NG loco (gauge was 18.5") but still a run-around loop.  Side unloading instead of end tipping, so no wagon TT. Much smaller difference in vertical height so little hopper capacity (if any). Gasworks also by a canal. LNWR rather than MR. Similar closure period.

 

 

 

https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/24/Berkhamstead.htm

 

See also https://tringlocalhistory.org.uk/Tring/Appendix.htm - the horse is called Ruby

Edited November 23, 2023 by Dunalastair

[Dunalastair]

A simpler approach to transferring gas coal from SG to NG - this is Warwick

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrw2167a.htm

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

The approach at Berkhamsted gasworks makes an interesting contrast ... Horse instead of NG loco ... but still a run-around loop. ...

Why on earth did the horse need a run round loop ??!? 😕

[Nearholmer]

Good question, and my guess is that the idea was to drop a rake of empties in the outer track, then man shunt them over a couple at a time to be filled, creating a rake of fulls in that road. Next horse and rake of empties arrives into outer loop; horse and fulls leaves inner track; repeat. That would give maximum flow rate, but probably wasn’t always/ever needed.

[Dunalastair]

Conventional wisdom seems to be that a loop on the map suggests loco working. While @Nearholmer's suggestion makes sense, a single point with parallel tracks would seem to offer most of the same function. Perhaps they thought that they might need to use a loco, but horses did the job - it would have helped that the gradient was downhill with the load.

 

I have just had a fun time removing the couplings from the SG wagon. NEM pockets they were not.  I'm not an expert on old Hornby wagons, but this one (branded 'Hornby' and 'Made in Great Britain' so Margate?) has an underframe moulded in very flexible plastic. Good for inserting wheels, but it made for rather a struggle to remove the moulded coupling loops and hook pivots without damaging the closely adjacent brake-shoe brackets. When I was last cutting up Tri-ang wagons back in the sixties, brake shoes were not in line with wheel treads. The now coupling-deprived wagon has also suffered a wash of grey to further destroy any collector value, and apart from being 16.5mm gauge now looks rather more the part of a workaday end-tipping coal wagon. What colour should the buffer faces be? Glossy black, as moulded, is clearly not right, but bright metal is probably too far the other way. Looking at photographs, a matt dark grey seems nearer the mark. Rusty preserved wagons are presumably not typical, having not run recently in service.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Dunalastair

[Dunalastair]

A trial 3D (filament) print of the tipping platform - rather to my surprise this printed reasonably well despite the angle. The platform is (or should be) dimensioned to fit between the (16.5mm gauge) rails

 

 

... and then with the de-couplered and weathered Hornby wagon in place, end door open, held by the axles with the wheels on either side

 

 

I think this provides confidence to go forward with this approach

[Wickham Green too]

Though the vast majority of suitable wagons were 9'wb the upper notch could be extended to allow other wheelbase - or perhaps there was just a flat bed from the block at the bottom ?

 

Buffers would probably get a coat of black when new but it would be known that they'd not stay that way so no great effort would be put into getting a good finish ! ......... this would be fairly typical of in-service buffers ...

 

20.080/100 : Lentran, 15/4/80

[Dunalastair]

Thankyou - those buffers on the twenty do look well used - unlike the shiny Renault bumpers (or the bicycle handlebars). 

 

"... perhaps there was just a flat bed from the block at the bottom?"

 

Good point - I have perhaps been guilty of overthinking the arrangement - a flat bed with a hook to capture the axle nearer the hopper would seem more flexible, provided the wagon could not shift if the load tipped unevenly. The Hornby wagon (unsurprisingly) has a 40mm wheelbase - so the wheels are too far apart in one dimension and too close together in the other - no wonder the proportions don't look quite right.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

All that the prototype needed was an end stop that part of the wagon comes up against - there is no need for cradles for both axles. The "part of the wagon" that hits the end stop can only really be the front axle or the buffers. The front wheels would be another likely candidate except that we can see they are hanging in free air. I did state earlier that it wasn't the buffers but now I'm not so sure. I can't clearly see the near front buffer head, so there might be something in front of it, and of course most of this end of the platform is hidden by the hopper. I expect that the top face of the platform is largely flat, for the two axles to rest on when it lifts up, irrespective of the wheelbase. There might be two or three inches of clearance in the down position, but probably not much more than this.

 

If you are making a static model, it doesn't much matter what you use, and I very much like the print you have made. If you are trying for a working model, you might find that some arrangements work better than others.

[Wickham Green too]

Adding a structure for the buffers to engage in would be a lot more complex than a 'hook' for the lower axle - and would probably throw coal in all directions !

[Jeremy Cumberland]

All that's needed is something to stop the wagon moving to the right. There's no need for any kind of hook or coupling. The wagon isn't going to move to the left once you've started raising the ramp.

[Dunalastair]

At some point I will need to start a build thread, but for now I'll continue posting here. Mike Smith has kindly sent me a higher res image of the 'wagon on tipper' image, and another similar photo as well. These enable a little more detail to be made out. The second image suggests that the gas company had its own wagon(s) as well as using colliery POs. It also shows the MH loco slightly more clearly. So the 3D model hopper building now looks a little different, with corrugated cladding on the lower part, windows and a door. Here is another perspective render.

 

It may be noticed that I have changed the very nominal MH for a representation of the earlier more obviously Fordson variety with chainguards. An initial print looks a little small beside the Peco OO9 tippers, so I may need to review dimensions.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Dunalastair said:

The second image suggests that the gas company had its own wagon(s) as well as using colliery POs.

 

Yes, per Ian Pope's Private Owner Wagons of Gloucestershire, referenced above.

[Nearholmer]

I think the Muirhill design was drawn in one of the editions of NG&IRM (I’ve got access to all, but it will take me a couple of days at least to look for it). If you want detailed photos, I took a set of an unrestored MH at Leighton Buzzard some years back; caveat as above. It is quite a big loco for its power output and gauge, because of the way that the tractor drive-train sits high-up, above the frames.

 

Nice resto one from Flickr:

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Dunalastair]

Yes, it is that restored example I have been basing my simplified 3D design on. It may now be on the Silverleaf Poplar in Lincs, I gather. Though the tractor unit sits high, it is not as high as some models I have seen based on the Nonneminstre castings - I think that motorising may distort some dimensions. I have adjusted my design a little - a revised version is now printing.

 

That took me down another rabbithole : colour. Google 'Fordson tractor' and most early examples restored were / are blue. I had lunch yesterday at Chester House Estate and they have a tractopr of about the same design as that used by Muir Hill. And it indeed is blue ...

 

https://productivedesign.co.uk/portfolio/chester-house-estate-wellingborough-northamptonshire-branding-signage/

 

However, it looks as if the 'blue' is part of the Estate's 'corporate branding'.

 

But, in the early 1920s Ford apparently used grey paint of various shades - hence presumably the grey on the restored MH example. The tractor wheels were variously red, black or orange, but of course MH did not use those (I wonder what they did with them?).  Between opening, closing and reopening of the plant in Cork, and the history of the Dagenham facility, it seems a complex story. Apparently the colour was changed again in WW2 when the tractor park in Essex provided too obvious a target for the Luftwaffe.

 

Photos of the similar Hudson gogos at Statfold Barn are both grey and blue - hedging bets or accurate research?

 

I think I'll stick with grey, perhaps with the red coupler blocks. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Dunalastair

[Nearholmer]

Weren’t the ones made at Cork painted green at some stage?

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Nearholmer

[Dunalastair]

3 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Weren’t the ones made at Cork painted green at some stage?

 

 

 

 

Yes, there were mentions of a grey-green, as well as the WW2 green - but I am now going to try to back out of that particular rabbit hole. 

 

https://www.tamarvintagetractors.co.uk/product-page/fordson

 

Sadly, WeBuyBooks has shipped my IRS Handbook by Amazon, and it has not arrived. We seem to have lost several packages via Amazon lately. I have raised a query by ebay. but suspect that a reimbursement is more likely than a delivery. Postie generally provides a better service.

[DCB]

On 23/11/2023 at 19:16, Wickham Green too said:

Why on earth did the horse need a run round loop ??!? 😕

Is it a run round loop.  Logically  you would pull the empty 4 wagon rakes past the loader via the loop and  then add them to the back of the waiting wagon.  before taking the previously  loaded wagons away.  Otherwise you would have to wait while the wagons were loaded  and could only run one rake of 4 wagons..

[Dunalastair]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

Is it a run round loop.  Logically  you would pull the empty 4 wagon rakes past the loader via the loop and  then add them to the back of the waiting wagon.  before taking the previously  loaded wagons away.  Otherwise you would have to wait while the wagons were loaded  and could only run one rake of 4 wagons..

 

That sounds possible, but a clearer photograph which I am now working from (thankyou Mike Smith) makes it clear that a MH loco was used. Parts are now coming off the printer, so I'll start a build thread in the 'diorama' section at an appropriate point. 

 

Sadly, the IRS handbook I ordered which describes the Stroud Gas locos (including the later Rustons) never did arrive, but at least I got a refund. I wonder which landfill the package ended up in? Postie did deliver a fiddle bow yesterday, a day before the tracking predicted, so despite the cost, Royal Mail does seem to be a more reliable carrier than Mr Bezos.

[009 micro modeller]

42 minutes ago, Dunalastair said:

That sounds possible, but a clearer photograph which I am now working from (thankyou Mike Smith) makes it clear that a MH loco was used.

At Stroud or Berkhamsted? I don’t think the latter ever had any locos.

[Dunalastair]

24 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

At Stroud or Berkhamsted? I don’t think the latter ever had any locos.

 

Sorry to confuse - locos at Stroud, horses at Berkhamsted. Guilty of conflation, m'lud.

 

One account of Berkhamsted has it that working of the 'fulls' was part gravity, part horse. It must have been an interesting sight, as expresses roared by on the embankment above.

[009 micro modeller]

12 hours ago, Dunalastair said:

One account of Berkhamsted has it that working of the 'fulls' was part gravity, part horse. It must have been an interesting sight, as expresses roared by on the embankment above.

Yes, the part through the subway was very steep. Going towards the gasworks I think the trains were set off by the horse and it then stood to one side as the train ran through the subway. As far as I can tell the horse hauled the wagons both ways on the remaining section (up towards the gasworks, gently downhill on the way back).

Edited December 7, 2023 by 009 micro modeller