modelling 55009 in TT120

[Blefuscu]

On 01/12/2023 at 20:13, tom s said:

For glazing windows I was thinking of 3d printing a template to cut around with a scalpel out of thin plastic or acetate, and maybe using water effect resin to give them some solidity from behind when mounted into the frame. Just a theory for now though!

I was pondering on this overnight. I wonder if it would be possible to temporarily blank off the window and flood them with resin (UV or crystal epoxy?) without the need to glaze them with plastic at all. In OO it might be too wobbly, like a 16th century window, but for TT or N perhaps we could get away with it.

 

BTW - is your class 15 model available anywhere? There was a Class 15 at Finsbury Park, so it's kind of on my list, at some point in the future.

 

 

[tom s]

19 minutes ago, Blefuscu said:

I was pondering on this overnight. I wonder if it would be possible to temporarily blank off the window and flood them with resin (UV or crystal epoxy?) without the need to glaze them with plastic at all. In OO it might be too wobbly, like a 16th century window, but for TT or N perhaps we could get away with it.

 

BTW - is your class 15 model available anywhere? There was a Class 15 at Finsbury Park, so it's kind of on my list, at some point in the future.

 

 

Perhaps could work, finding a resin that behaves itself and doesn't try to climb the walls at the edges would be good, and sorting out a blanking that will either release or just be clear. 
If a company with a powerful enough CO2 laser to cut clear materiel had reasonable commission costs, that might be an option too.

The 15 was my first one so it needs a lot redoing with what I've learned since, and it lacks any underframes so far, but the intention is to put them up publicly eventually. I also did it by ruler so it is not quite lined up now that I've scanned the drawings.

Speaking of scanning the drawings, how were you using the Mainline book drawings? As far as I see they have the nose top face curve and roof profile that that has been pointed out in feedback.

[Blefuscu]

16 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

 

You could possibly benefit from a wider range of reference material.  There are numerous books about the Deltics and there might well be other drawings lurking somewhere.

Yes, that too. Although when it comes to reading the flow of the lines I find it helpful to have a real one to study. One day I would like to take one of my prints up to York or Barrow Hill and offer it up against a real one and really get into some of the problem areas.

 

Joining the Model Railway Club at Kings Cross is something I've considered - they have a big library. Otherwise, efforts to increase my personal library of reference material have been met with A Stern Gaze, so I have been mainly limited to an internet search. Considering the breadth of literature on the Deltic I was surprised by the lack of drawings I found online. I certainly didn't find anything better than the example in British Rail Diesel Locomotives. I relied too heavily on that drawing when drafting the initial form of the body - which is harder to recover from later - so that's a lesson learnt! To be fair to the authors, over the course of this exercise, if I was scratch building this in 1988 and achieved anything close to those drawings I would have been rather pleased with it.

 

The help I have received in this thread has been extremely valuable though. I wouldn't have had that in 1988. It's almost tempting to open a thread for my next subject but I'll probably have a go at it first... and there's this one to finish first. I'm going to carry out some sort of adjustment to the roof, and then i'll probably call it and go for a test print.

 

 

 

[Blefuscu]

1 hour ago, tom s said:

Perhaps could work, finding a resin that behaves itself and doesn't try to climb the walls at the edges would be good, and sorting out a blanking that will either release or just be clear. 
If a company with a powerful enough CO2 laser to cut clear materiel had reasonable commission costs, that might be an option too.

The 15 was my first one so it needs a lot redoing with what I've learned since, and it lacks any underframes so far, but the intention is to put them up publicly eventually. I also did it by ruler so it is not quite lined up now that I've scanned the drawings.

Speaking of scanning the drawings, how were you using the Mainline book drawings? As far as I see they have the nose top face curve and roof profile that that has been pointed out in feedback.

Oh dear, you seem to be right! I was using them in front/right/top orthographic views... but I look at it now and my front orthographic is well off. I'm trying to work out what I did there... because the side view is pretty good. The nose is just a bit high where I rounded it, but otherwise fine.  In any case, it's me, not the book.

Sorry book.

I think I can pat it and prod it into shape. Although the temptation to start anew, with all my new found knowledge, is growing stronger.

 

I look forward to seeing the 15 one day. As I'm already thinking of redoing this one I can relate to that! 

 

 

[MikeTrice]

You are probably way beyond this point but comparing the 3D model with the Deltic image I would say the side profile is too rounded on the model where it should be more hockey stick. Have doctored your image to exaggerate:

[Blefuscu]

3 hours ago, MikeTrice said:

You are probably way beyond this point but comparing the 3D model with the Deltic image I would say the side profile is too rounded on the model where it should be more hockey stick. Have doctored your image to exaggerate:

Thanks Mike, yes Flying Pig also noticed that. I had a go at reshaping it earlier this evening... but I'm going to sleep on it now and check it over with fresh eyes tomorrow.

[tom s]

14 hours ago, Blefuscu said:

I look forward to seeing the 15 one day. As I'm already thinking of redoing this one I can relate to that! 

 

 

Yeah the pilot scheme diesels from the late 50's are my favoured niche in the hobby, but obviously their low numbers and short, unimportant lives means there are many gaps in 2mm scale so 3D modelling and printing them seems to be the path to the best result right now.

[Blefuscu]

17 hours ago, tom s said:

Yeah the pilot scheme diesels from the late 50's are my favoured niche in the hobby, but obviously their low numbers and short, unimportant lives means there are many gaps in 2mm scale so 3D modelling and printing them seems to be the path to the best result right now.

Yes, they have a real charm to them. My theme for this work is exploring Hornsey and Harringey around 1980 - but I can't resist the 15 from Finsbury Park TDM.

Initially, gaps are quite a draw to me... until I realise how little free time I have. 1:120 is an open field with respect to gaps. It feels like a pretty good size for me too, I did look at 2FS, but I was worried about how much detail I could work into the models. I'll probably end up printing a 55 in 2mm just to see... it would be hard not to.

[Blefuscu]

I did a bit more work this evening and here are a couple of angles of the new roof. I've injured my neck and shoulder, which is really slowing me down, but I think I've made a bit of progress there.

 

NB I've discovered quite a resource of BR drawings for loco's and coaching stock at the Barrowmore Model Railway Group website. Perhaps, a bit late for this project, but useful for the future.

 http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

[tom s]

10 hours ago, Blefuscu said:

1:120 is an open field with respect to gaps. It feels like a pretty good size for me too, I did look at 2FS, but I was worried about how much detail I could work into the models. I'll probably end up printing a 55 in 2mm just to see... it would be hard not to.

The scale of 120 does appeal, I would only wonder whether it will get enough support as a railway modelling scale, even for a scratchbuilder.

The new model does look good!

Those drawing books are probably a substantial basis for the Mainline book, looking at some of the odd models like the rounded class 31 for example. Still lots of useful media for a project basis though, have saved the outline for the Fowler 2-6-2T from the ex-LMS pdf for later, modelling the Widened Lines and all!

Edited December 8, 2023 by tom s

[Blefuscu]

16 hours ago, tom s said:

The scale of 120 does appeal, I would only wonder whether it will get enough support as a railway modelling scale, even for a scratchbuilder.

Yes, I did wonder about that too. There are certainly no guarantees are there. Sourcing bogies and running gear would be the biggest obstacle I guess. I have looked at some of the 3mm guidance out there, but nothing looked as obvious as using those class 50 bogies. Buying new locos to disassemble doesn't seem very sustainable long term though.

 

I'm pretty happy with the 55 body now. There's quite a bit of cleaning up to do now, but I'm aiming for a test print before Christmas.

 

I agree, i'd be very surprised if the mainline diagrams weren't derived from these. I think the measurements are very useful on these though.... plus there's all the rolling stock.

. Lots of scope there. I was led to these documents from the 313 wikipedia page, and I've picked those diagrams out. I haven't done much browsing as I know I'll get distracted!

[tom s]

7 hours ago, Blefuscu said:

Yes, I did wonder about that too. There are certainly no guarantees are there. Sourcing bogies and running gear would be the biggest obstacle I guess. I have looked at some of the 3mm guidance out there, but nothing looked as obvious as using those class 50 bogies. Buying new locos to disassemble doesn't seem very sustainable long term though.

 

I'm pretty happy with the 55 body now. There's quite a bit of cleaning up to do now, but I'm aiming for a test print before Christmas.

 

I agree, i'd be very surprised if the mainline diagrams weren't derived from these. I think the measurements are very useful on these though.... plus there's all the rolling stock.

. Lots of scope there. I was led to these documents from the 313 wikipedia page, and I've picked those diagrams out. I haven't done much browsing as I know I'll get distracted!

At least if your Class 15 is one of the static carriage heaters in your period you won't need to worry about the working chassis!

Hopefully there are folks on ebay who want a class 50 bodyshell that will recoup some of the cost, but I do not envy the lack of variety in models currently, or the extortionate price of some of the tt120 spares...

[Blefuscu]

6 hours ago, tom s said:

At least if your Class 15 is one of the static carriage heaters in your period you won't need to worry about the working chassis!

Hopefully there are folks on ebay who want a class 50 bodyshell that will recoup some of the cost, but I do not envy the lack of variety in models currently, or the extortionate price of some of the tt120 spares...

Ha ha - that's a serious consideration. Given my budget, it won't be the only static model in the sidings either.

Lack of spares or any second hand market is a problem. It pains me to be dissecting new models.

I might have another look at 12mm gauge 3mm kits for ideas.

 

[tom s]

18 minutes ago, Blefuscu said:

I might have another look at 12mm gauge 3mm kits for ideas.

 

That'd be useful if they have wheels and the likes in the right size. 2mm scale motors, worms, pcbs probably work fine. 

I have been experimenting with printed bogies and gears (made with the Extra Objects blender add-on,) so far surprisingly smooth running but remains to be seen how durable they are in the long term. 

[Blefuscu]

1 hour ago, tom s said:

I have been experimenting with printed bogies and gears (made with the Extra Objects blender add-on,) so far surprisingly smooth running but remains to be seen how durable they are in the long term. 

That's interesting... I have yet to try printing gears. I'm using Anycubic's standard resin at the moment, which I don't think would be appropriate.

I've been looking at wheels this afternoon and the supply seems a little patchy. However, Piko seem to have a decent spares service so even if the BR119 isn't a  suitable donor for bogies, or chassis... all the geared axles, worm gears and driveshafts seem to be available.

 

There's a nice exploded diagram here;

file:///C:/Users/emerg/Downloads/40264_ba_47346_7012_modifiziert.pdf

 

The geared bogie, part 47340-33, seems to include wheels... I am thinking about attempting to reverse enginneer a longer version of that, or I design a 'something else' just to accommodate the 'Wheelset w gear' and worm gear. It's just a thought though...

[tom s]

4 hours ago, Blefuscu said:

That's interesting... I have yet to try printing gears. I'm using Anycubic's standard resin at the moment, which I don't think would be appropriate.

 

Phrozen Aqua 2K here on a 2K printer, although in hindsight it wasn't an ideal choice to buy the bright blue one when these working parts might be visible...


On 3D models I found some software that can 'screenshot' a frame from a video game, and grabbed the Deltic from Train Simulator Classic. It is not very high poly (Blender's auto shade smooth render is doing a lot of the lifting for it looking acceptable,) and has quite a few issues but possibly a good source for getting some rough models for personal use printing. Not as fun or rewarding as a scratch made 3D model though!

Edited December 9, 2023 by tom s

[Blefuscu]

14 hours ago, tom s said:

On 3D models I found some software that can 'screenshot' a frame from a video game,

Which software did you use? I built a model from a game rip for a model truck was doing in 1/14... I haven't done any rips myself, but I pulled it out of a game mod.

Have you tried preparing one for print?

In my limited experience, the results were pretty good, and far from rough, but it took a lot of work. The bodywork tends to be (mostly) ok after a subdivision surface mod, but every detail needs rebuilding... that felt a bit ardious. I'm also planning to sell this stl on cults3d, and possibly sell some prints, and I'd really prefer to do that with a clear conscience... although, I'm sure there are a lot of gamerips and 3D scans on there.

 

It definitely does feel more fun and rewarding to work from photos and drawings, if frustrating at times. While I was addressing the shape of sides I seem to have lost 1mm in height working from the front elevation! Otherwise, this next image was immensly satisfying - I offered up Hornby's 50 bogies against my model and the diagram from the Mainline book. It shows the expected 6mm difference in wheelbase, and is otherwise very encouraging. So, I have stopped thinking about building my own bogies from Piko parts - at least for now.

 

I haven't tried Phrozen Aqua... I think my standard grey was on sale, because looking at the prices now, I find them quite alarming. I am thinking about a clear resin next after problems with pigment settling out, and probably an 'abs-like'. My choice will be largely dictated by cost though.

[tom s]

1 hour ago, Blefuscu said:

Which software did you use? I built a model from a game rip for a model truck was doing in 1/14... I haven't done any rips myself, but I pulled it out of a game mod.

Have you tried preparing one for print?

Ninja Ripper 2.1, I had an issue where the whole model was warped as if the FOV was wrong, but some skewing and the MeasureIt add-on was able to rectify it. One issue is all the parts are not closed models, they'd all need to be closed, and all the tiny details and panel gaps that aren't made with printing in mind... yeah it might be a job turning it into a print. Still, useful to have! 
I agree on the ethics of reselling a model, would want anything up for sale to be scratch made, even if it uses the model as a reference.

I do wonder how short the deltic body could be made before the brain starts to realise something is amiss, especially if the 6mm was taken out of just the body between the cab doors, lots of solutions to the issue though. I'd be at the chassis with a hacksaw! 

 

[Blefuscu]

On 10/12/2023 at 14:53, tom s said:

I'd be at the chassis with a hacksaw!

Yes, I'm looking forward to some 'proper' modelling!

 

Thanks - I'll make a note of Ninja Ripper. Yes, that's what I meant about needing to be rebuilt. It's amazing what they can do with half a dozen vertices and a normal map. Although a lot of my initial components were seperate, and now I'm deep into boolean clean-ups on that journey to a single manifold hull. Nothing of interest happening here for a few hours/days...

While I'm massaging vertices I'll probably do an earlier version with route codes and no EHT  jumper... although I might not use it myself.

All those wires at the front are about 0.3mm in diameter - so I'm thinking about cutting those in as holes, for to use actually wire.

[tom s]

14 hours ago, Blefuscu said:

Yes, I'm looking forward to some 'proper' modelling!

 

Thanks - I'll make a note of Ninja Ripper. Yes, that's what I meant about needing to be rebuilt. It's amazing what they can do with half a dozen vertices and a normal map. Although a lot of my initial components were seperate, and now I'm deep into boolean clean-ups on that journey to a single manifold hull. Nothing of interest happening here for a few hours/days...

While I'm massaging vertices I'll probably do an earlier version with route codes and no EHT  jumper... although I might not use it myself.

All those wires at the front are about 0.3mm in diameter - so I'm thinking about cutting those in as holes, for to use actually wire.

Ah the fun of trying to cut up a print and finding it's not manifold! 
There are so many variants to some of these classes, it might be difficult making a succinct file system with multiple scales and multiple versions...
Actual wire is ideal, there is a choice between the soft silvered steel wire that folks use in jewellery making, or piano wire that is much stronger but needs straightening with a drill and is not as easy to manipulate.

[Blefuscu]

4 hours ago, tom s said:

Ah the fun of trying to cut up a print and finding it's not manifold! 
There are so many variants to some of these classes, it might be difficult making a succinct file system with multiple scales and multiple versions...
Actual wire is ideal, there is a choice between the soft silvered steel wire that folks use in jewellery making, or piano wire that is much stronger but needs straightening with a drill and is not as easy to manipulate.

Fun indeed! If I have a good audiobook on, it's quite therapeutic.

 

I'm going to keep the file versioning quite simple, as it can escalate fast. In my mind I'm settled on just this 1982 version, and the earlier (or preservation) variant with no EHT jumper, and the headcode box, in case I ever want a green one. I'm only exporting STLs in TT120 scale initially, as that's what I've been working in, and will ultimately print it in. It would be fine scaling it up a bit for 3mm... anything else would need testing out first.

 

Every time my son breaks an E string I am gifted a length of 0.2mm hard steel wire, I think it's mechanically identical to piano wire in that it will try and take out your eyes as you work on it... but I have other gauges lying around, and some soft stuff too.

[tom s]

On 12/12/2023 at 16:43, Blefuscu said:

Fun indeed! If I have a good audiobook on, it's quite therapeutic.

 

I'm going to keep the file versioning quite simple, as it can escalate fast. In my mind I'm settled on just this 1982 version, and the earlier (or preservation) variant with no EHT jumper, and the headcode box, in case I ever want a green one. I'm only exporting STLs in TT120 scale initially, as that's what I've been working in, and will ultimately print it in. It would be fine scaling it up a bit for 3mm... anything else would need testing out first.

 

Every time my son breaks an E string I am gifted a length of 0.2mm hard steel wire, I think it's mechanically identical to piano wire in that it will try and take out your eyes as you work on it... but I have other gauges lying around, and some soft stuff too.

Those versions sound good! Some classes like the 21/29, 20, 31 will probably be a head scratcher for which versions to include if I get those up...

I wear the goggles I bought for the printing when straightening the piano wire with a drill, it always feels like it's only a few turns away from being a life regret... luckily so far being fingertip impaled on the end when unwinding the stuff is as serious as it's gotten!

[Blefuscu]

6 hours ago, tom s said:

Those versions sound good! Some classes like the 21/29, 20, 31 will probably be a head scratcher for which versions to include if I get those up...

I wear the goggles I bought for the printing when straightening the piano wire with a drill, it always feels like it's only a few turns away from being a life regret... luckily so far being fingertip impaled on the end when unwinding the stuff is as serious as it's gotten!

Yes, I've got it relatively easy with the 55... I'm not even in a rush for the early version. By taking a hands on approach it can be easily achieved by cutting bits off and cutting holes into the late one. I'm also concerned that, when I finally see a chassis for the 55, there will be a bit of work to carry out adapting the interior of the model to the chassis and I don't really want to have to replicate that across other versions.

 

Other classes present more of a problem yes. I looked at the 31, but it's a way down my list. I will probably try the 47 first - which also has a page of end versions in the mainline book.  I think in such cases  I will try and focus my ambitions to what was around on the ECML in late seventies/ early eighties and only think about extra versions when I have something that's 'good enough'.

 

Oh, I have a few pairs of goggles around. Everytime a cutting disc decides to liberate itself from the dremel I feel moments like that.

 

[tom s]

17 hours ago, Blefuscu said:

Yes, I've got it relatively easy with the 55... I'm not even in a rush for the early version. By taking a hands on approach it can be easily achieved by cutting bits off and cutting holes into the late one. I'm also concerned that, when I finally see a chassis for the 55, there will be a bit of work to carry out adapting the interior of the model to the chassis and I don't really want to have to replicate that across other versions.

 

Other classes present more of a problem yes. I looked at the 31, but it's a way down my list. I will probably try the 47 first - which also has a page of end versions in the mainline book.  I think in such cases  I will try and focus my ambitions to what was around on the ECML in late seventies/ early eighties and only think about extra versions when I have something that's 'good enough'.

 

Oh, I have a few pairs of goggles around. Everytime a cutting disc decides to liberate itself from the dremel I feel moments like that.

 

Indeed will be work getting the print to mate with a chassis. I'm leaning on not even trying and printing the chassis with channels for weights, have got some cheap motors with gear reduction built in on order from overseas to test them out too. 
Hornby will be adding a 37/47 in it's next tt120 phase and a 31 in the phase after that, according to the site.

[Blefuscu]

On 15/12/2023 at 14:25, tom s said:

Indeed will be work getting the print to mate with a chassis. I'm leaning on not even trying and printing the chassis with channels for weights, have got some cheap motors with gear reduction built in on order from overseas to test them out too. 
Hornby will be adding a 37/47 in it's next tt120 phase and a 31 in the phase after that, according to the site.

I'm keeping an open mind regarding the chassis. Designing a new thing might be easier than adapting an existing thing... I will have to wait and see for now.

 

I assumed the 37 wouldn't be far down their list. The 47 and 32 will be nice too. Do we have any idea of when phase two might happen? On the one hand, I'm kind of tempted to ignore there schedules and make my own as STLs will be generally useful... but on the other hand, if I have to wait for the Hornby models for my bogies anyway it does make me wonder if the thing is worth doing.