modelling 55009 in TT120

[Blefuscu]

Hello,

I'm having a go at a Deltic in 1:120 scale and I thought I'd post my early work in case anyone has any useful feedback.

 

No idea about the chassis yet... to be honest,  I don't even have any track yet, so running it remains a moot point for now.

 

I have been working from the plans in British Rail Main Line Diesel Locomotives 2nd ed. by C. Marsden and G. Fenn, and a fair bit of eye-balling from Flickr images etc.

Apparently a real one came through Hornsey on Thursday, but I missed it... hopefully, I'll get a chance to see it on Sunday.

[Harley666]

There is an option for this in TT 120 from Lincoln locos.

https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/class-55-deltic/ 

 

I think the Hornby class 50 will be ok depending on how long the actual block is, the class 50 does not have nose ends like the the 55 but the length and bogies are the same, if you can get away with using the Hornby class 50 chassis then you would need to do a battery box to clip on the chassis 

[MartinRS]

17 minutes ago, Harley666 said:

There is an option for this in TT 120 from Lincoln locos.

https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/class-55-deltic/ 

 

I think the Hornby class 50 will be ok depending on how long the actual block is, the class 50 does not have nose ends like the the 55 but the length and bogies are the same, if you can get away with using the Hornby class 50 chassis then you would need to do a battery box to clip on the chassis 

I'm not sure if Lincoln Loco do in fact offer the Deltic bodyshell in TT:120. I don't see it listed on their TT:120 product page and their 'Also available in TT:120' logo is absent from the Delic's web page. It would be great if they (or Blefuscu) designed a bodyshell which could be swapped for the Hornby proposed Class 50 with a minimum (or zero) changes to the bodyshell or chassis.

[TT-Pete]

3 hours ago, MartinRS said:

I'm not sure if Lincoln Loco do in fact offer the Deltic bodyshell in TT:120.

 

When I enquired they basically said "anything can be done in 120, just ask...". The Piko Br118 co-co chassis might well be capable of being adapted to fit.

https://www.piko-shop.de/en/artikel/tt-br-118-diesel-dr-iv-6-axle-16971.html

Edited November 25, 2023 by TT-Pete

[Blefuscu]

5 hours ago, Harley666 said:

There is an option for this in TT 120 from Lincoln locos.

https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/class-55-deltic/ 

 

I think the Hornby class 50 will be ok depending on how long the actual block is, the class 50 does not have nose ends like the the 55 but the length and bogies are the same, if you can get away with using the Hornby class 50 chassis then you would need to do a battery box to clip on the chassis 

 

Thanks, I hadn't seen that. I'm going to plod on with my own design though as I'm quite enjoying it. I'm going through a mass of images and youtube videos and they are a pleasure to study.  I'd also like to have my own .stl for this. When I do get to see the class 50 chassis, I will inevitably want to make adjustments. 

[Blefuscu]

1 hour ago, TT-Pete said:

 

The Piko Br118 co-co chassis might well be capable of being adapted to fit.

https://www.piko-shop.de/en/artikel/tt-br-118-diesel-dr-iv-6-axle-16971.html

 

I have looked at the BR118 co-co... a search for 47290 shows a comprehensive list of spares. It looks like the bogies are available complete, and the dogbone shafts and motor with drive cups are there too. It looks like that could be a viable option. I'm favouring the class 50 at the moment because I will want one anyway and at that point I will have one in hand to measure up.

[Blefuscu]

Just a little progress update before I knock it on the head for tonight. Starting to get some of the details in. I think I need to address the curve along the bottom of the body next... I probably should have done this earlier. 

 

This side-by-side was to look at the panels on the nose, and to get another view of the windows. I was finding these hard to get from images, but there are a few videos of 55009 going under bridges and these were really helpful. That said, the images I have been using are from it's last days in Finsbury Park when it had the white cab, which is why I blanked off the head code panel. I was about 9 years old at the time.

[natterjack]

Just a thought that your couplings cut-out looks a bit too wide; you need space for the buffers- talking of which, can I suggest you have a look through the N Brass Locos website as a number of their N Gauge parts are eminently suitable for TT120 including buffers, hoses,dummy couplings, air horns, wipers etc etc.

 

https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitall.html

 

No connection beyond being a very satisfied customer.

[teletougos]

20 hours ago, Harley666 said:

There is an option for this in TT 120 from Lincoln locos.

https://lincoln-loco.co.uk/class-55-deltic/ 

 

I think the Hornby class 50 will be ok depending on how long the actual block is, the class 50 does not have nose ends like the the 55 but the length and bogies are the same, if you can get away with using the Hornby class 50 chassis then you would need to do a battery box to clip on the chassis 

A class 55 is 2'4" longer wheelbase than a 50, between bogie centres. 45' vs 42'8".  That is a 6mm difference and will be visible.

 

Tho it could use the same bogies.   

[teletougos]

16 hours ago, TT-Pete said:

 

When I enquired they basically said "anything can be done in 120, just ask...". The Piko Br118 co-co chassis might well be capable of being adapted to fit.

https://www.piko-shop.de/en/artikel/tt-br-118-diesel-dr-iv-6-axle-16971.html

IIRC, a BR118 has 1800 + 1800mm trucks.  That's 11' 10", quite a bit shorter than a Deltic truck - 13'6" wheelbase. We know from some scratchbuilds of the German TT group that these trucks don't look great under US locos (13'7" truck).  Doubt they'd look any better under a Deltic.

Edited November 26, 2023 by teletougos

[Blefuscu]

5 hours ago, natterjack said:

Just a thought that your couplings cut-out looks a bit too wide; you need space for the buffers- talking of which, can I suggest you have a look through the N Brass Locos website as a number of their N Gauge parts are eminently suitable for TT120 including buffers, hoses,dummy couplings, air horns, wipers etc etc.

 

https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitall.html

 

No connection beyond being a very satisfied customer.

Thanks for that, I did wonder about the wipers and airhorns. The prices look very reasonable.

 

I will have a closer look at the coupling cut out. The drawings seem pretty good, but it may be an issue with my lining up the side and front elevations. I have shaped the lower body now, which may make a difference to how it looks. In any case, I can still freely adjust the cut out without breaking anything else, so it's great to have that feedback.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: You were right, the cut-out was well off!

Edited November 26, 2023 by Blefuscu

[Blefuscu]

2 hours ago, teletougos said:

A class 55 is 2'4" longer wheelbase than a 50, between bogie centres. 45' vs 42'8".  That is a 6mm difference and will be visible.

 

Tho it could use the same bogies.   

Thanks, that is very useful - and the BR118 info too. If the class 50 bogies are viable, that's a starting point - when its released at any rate.

[Blefuscu]

I've been working on the roof. I acknowledge that it is, to some extent a work of fiction. I have found less reference material for the top of the deltic, and am a little too far away from one to just go and have a look. However, I'm also conscious that some of these details are going to be very small in 1:120, so I have needed to make some compromises in my interpretation of what I can see. There are obviously a lot of other models of 55's about too - and they have been pretty useful.

 

There's still quite a to do list... until the class 50 is available I have no wheels, however, I'd like to get all the modelling over with now and have a test print in hand.

No buffers yet. Holes/vents to be added to the center of the roof, and the vent on the side of the end needs doing. Horns and wipers will probably be etched parts, and I need to make holes in the ends for wires. The end windows will be cut through and require glazing.

 

All my excuses aside, any feedback is welcome as I'm still at a point where it's relatively easy to change things.

 

 

[tom s]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/albums/72157627029632086 Brian Daniels has some useful reference material for pretty much all surviving diesel classes.

Some of Accurascale's models include front, side and often top views for 3d model reference. While this is at risk of Chinese whispers in model form (plus compromises made for production parts,) I'd like to assume Accurascale had access to works drawings and the preserved Deltics when designing it.

I have been using the first edition of the book you referenced to 3d model but I had found the accuracy to be lacking in a lot of places, (wheels placement and buffer height being out, drawings not matching between the 3 axis views, some that just look wrong like they were using the locomotive handbook weight diagrams instead of an engineering drawing to work from.)
Therefore have been trying to use photographs when possible. I don't know if the drawings were improved for the second edition though.

[natterjack]

Again, just another observation but Hornby are likely to have their body sides between 0.5 and 1mm thick with the interior width filled to the maximum with metal chassis and mechanism. For a body swap project, you'd need to take account of this, especially whether to print as a single unit or as a kit of parts best oriented for thin wall printing. 

 

Slightly off topic, my solution for the GT3 I'm building is a combination of 3d printing and thin panel etching (might have a powered chassis in time for Christmas).

[Revolution Ben]

 

Hi there,

 

Nice job.  I have no empirical evidence for this, and don't even consider myself much of a Deltic afficionado, however the cab windscreens look a fraction too deep to me, and the top of the nose slightly too flat.

 

I suspect increasing the curvature over the front of the nose would at the same time raise the lower edge of the windows just the right amount.

 

Great job though!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Blefuscu]

1 hour ago, tom s said:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/albums/72157627029632086 Brian Daniels has some useful reference material for pretty much all surviving diesel classes.

Some of Accurascale's models include front, side and often top views for 3d model reference. While this is at risk of Chinese whispers in model form (plus compromises made for production parts,) I'd like to assume Accurascale had access to works drawings and the preserved Deltics when designing it.

I have been using the first edition of the book you referenced to 3d model but I had found the accuracy to be lacking in a lot of places, (wheels placement and buffer height being out, drawings not matching between the 3 axis views, some that just look wrong like they were using the locomotive handbook weight diagrams instead of an engineering drawing to work from.)
Therefore have been trying to use photographs when possible. I don't know if the drawings were improved for the second edition though.

Thanks so much - those images of Brian's are really fantastic! I really have no excuses now. The model reference looks good too. I didn't want to refer too much to Accurascale's OO model, as they have done such a good job it felt like cheating a bit. I also know there's a lot going on there that I will struggle to reproduce at this scale.

 

From my experience thus far - I really don't think they remastered any of the older classes in my second edition, the ends don't quite line up for example. Subsequently, I too use a lot of photo's too - but I like to have some kind of orthographic projection as a starting point.

[Blefuscu]

31 minutes ago, natterjack said:

Again, just another observation but Hornby are likely to have their body sides between 0.5 and 1mm thick with the interior width filled to the maximum with metal chassis and mechanism. For a body swap project, you'd need to take account of this, especially whether to print as a single unit or as a kit of parts best oriented for thin wall printing. 

 

Slightly off topic, my solution for the GT3 I'm building is a combination of 3d printing and thin panel etching (might have a powered chassis in time for Christmas).

That's good to know. I'm pretty sure I can get my sides down to 1mm on my resin printer. I have just finished a Peugeot 504 in TT120, and that has some very thin section in the body work. I'm not afraid to take on a chassis too, if I need to. I will already need to extend the wheelbase of the bogies if I use the 50 parts.

[Blefuscu]

24 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

Hi there,

 

Nice job.  I have no empirical evidence for this, and don't even consider myself much of a Deltic afficionado, however the cab windscreens look a fraction too deep to me, and the top of the nose slightly too flat.

 

I suspect increasing the curvature over the front of the nose would at the same time raise the lower edge of the windows just the right amount.

 

Great job though!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Thank you, and thanks for spotting that! I have obviously been looking too closely, and for too long, to spot that.  I will offer it up against some of the new images I have from Brian Daniels.

 

The wind screens themselves are actually only blocked in temporarily at the moment. I think they are too deep, bescause at some point I tweaked the length of the model. I'll take that bit of glass out when I prepare for printing at the end though. (I assume it will be best to glaze the windows.... although I could attempt to print them in clear resin. I have never tried that before, my feeling is the flat windscreens are going show too many print artifacts.)

[tom s]

Yeah Brian's pictures are exceptional. 
One of my projects is a Class 21 for N scale, (funnily enough an old Revolution Trains plan that didn't reach the expected demand to justify producing,) and I think I found the drawing that was used to produce the one in the book. 
I doubt I will ever know how accurate my attempt is but from the few photographs that are the right perspective, it looks like it doesn't match the book one:
I have too many projects that I am too slow at, they'll probably all be available RtR by the time I have finished them.... 

Edited December 1, 2023 by tom s

[tom s]

For glazing windows I was thinking of 3d printing a template to cut around with a scalpel out of thin plastic or acetate, and maybe using water effect resin to give them some solidity from behind when mounted into the frame. Just a theory for now though!

[Flying Pig]

2 hours ago, Blefuscu said:

Thank you, and thanks for spotting that! I have obviously been looking too closely, and for too long, to spot that.  I will offer it up against some of the new images I have from Brian Daniels.

 

The wind screens themselves are actually only blocked in temporarily at the moment. I think they are too deep, bescause at some point I tweaked the length of the model. I'll take that bit of glass out when I prepare for printing at the end though. (I assume it will be best to glaze the windows.... although I could attempt to print them in clear resin. I have never tried that before, my feeling is the flat windscreens are going show too many print artifacts.)

 

I don't think the cross-section is right.  The roof is too domed - it should be a flatter elipse starting higher up, with a deeper flat panel above the side windows.  You seem to have pulled the roof panels too far down as a result and the shape of the cab doors and side windows is also wrong. It will clearly affect the windscreen as well.

 

Do the cabs and noses taper correctly in plan view?  Without this you will not get the relationships of the cab and nose to look right.  It is also what enables the bodyside turnunder to fade away to nothing by the nose end.

 

The Deltic body is a collection of very subtle shapes and relationships - a brave choice of subject!

 

 

[Blefuscu]

On 01/12/2023 at 20:13, tom s said:

For glazing windows I was thinking of 3d printing a template to cut around with a scalpel out of thin plastic or acetate...

Yes, I was thinking of just printing them as a guide and cutting them in polycarbonate. Acetate would do as well, I'm sure. I'm not looking forward to fitting them.

 

I really do relate to your position on too many projects. You have some nice models there though. I'm not too worried about my 55 appearing rtr in 1:120 soon, although I'm sure it will in time. I like making things anyway.

[Blefuscu]

On 01/12/2023 at 22:07, Flying Pig said:

 

I don't think the cross-section is right.  The roof is too domed - it should be a flatter elipse starting higher up, with a deeper flat panel above the side windows.  You seem to have pulled the roof panels too far down as a result and the shape of the cab doors and side windows is also wrong. It will clearly affect the windscreen as well.

 

Do the cabs and noses taper correctly in plan view?  Without this you will not get the relationships of the cab and nose to look right.  It is also what enables the bodyside turnunder to fade away to nothing by the nose end.

 

The Deltic body is a collection of very subtle shapes and relationships - a brave choice of subject!

 

 

I feared as much. According to my front elevation in the book, it looked OK. However from the photographs of the roof I understand what you mean about the flatter ellipse. I might see if I can coax that shape out gently without destroying the roof details.

 

I think the end to end taper is ok... at least, it does match the top elevation of the plan i have. In the last images I posted the turnunder does seem to extend too far toward the nose. I have since done a bit of work on that while getting the buffers to look right.

 

Yes, there is a lot more going on here than I appreciated when I started. Given the nature of some of these curves, a trip to York might have been a good idea. Overall, for my first locomotive, I'm quite pleased with how it's coming along - but I'll be happy to try an EMU next!

 

[Flying Pig]

11 hours ago, Blefuscu said:

I feared as much. According to my front elevation in the book, it looked OK. However from the photographs of the roof I understand what you mean about the flatter ellipse. I might see if I can coax that shape out gently without destroying the roof details.

 

I think the end to end taper is ok... at least, it does match the top elevation of the plan i have. In the last images I posted the turnunder does seem to extend too far toward the nose. I have since done a bit of work on that while getting the buffers to look right.

 

Yes, there is a lot more going on here than I appreciated when I started. Given the nature of some of these curves, a trip to York might have been a good idea. Overall, for my first locomotive, I'm quite pleased with how it's coming along - but I'll be happy to try an EMU next!

 

 

You could possibly benefit from a wider range of reference material.  There are numerous books about the Deltics and there might well be other drawings lurking somewhere.