A new layout that lacks inspiration

[APT Fan]

Hi all,

I'm quite new to layout building and I'm just about to start with one after spending over a year on and off preparing the loft space. I've quite enjoyed the building work but I'm nearly at the end of the job list now so I can't keep putting off the layout build forever, I'm just a little bit nervous about it.

 

A large Fakro loft hatch has been fitted with fold-away timber ladders making access so easy. Then a timber sub frame has been built on to which the floor boards have been fitted. A ring main with 10 sockets, perhaps a bit over the top, but I wanted to be able to use a 2.5Kw Oil filled radiator in the room plus I was not happy with the condition of the existing radial supply in there so that had to come out. Foil insulation has been fitted and has made a huge difference, -5C outside today but it hasn't dropped below 12C up there all week and takes no time to warm up to a pleasant temperature. A game changer has been fitting the Velux windows which has made it such a pleasant environment, I hardly ever need the lights on during the day due to it being so light and it can be quite bearable in the summer with the windows open. I think we had 33C one day and it was still (only) 25C in the loft.

 

The baseboard consists of 12mm plywood on CLS bearers spanning the trusses forming a complete loop around the loft. The two main runs are 0.9Mx7M with the returns about 1.2MX0.6M between the trusses, I didn't want to make any cuts to the trusses. The layout is to be a DCC four track main line layout set in the 80s inspired by the WCML, but not many ideas beyond that. I'm mainly thinking of a bit of a station / town scene, a depot, perhaps an oil refinery / industrial area and probably quite a bit of countryside. I need quite a long fiddle section to park a 9 car APT and an HST. For me it is mainly about the trains, signals and automation rather than lots of scenery, but my interest might develop more in that area. I don't have lots of rolling stock or locos but nearly all my locos have sound and I'd just like to leave them running whilst I'm working, I can't see me doing a lot of shunting.

 

I'll post some pictures of the setup and one of the layout that I'm thinking of created on the Z21 interface, obviously not to scale. Any comments, advice, suggestions and criticisms would be very much appreciated. Thanks. 

 

North Section - facing West

 

South Section - facing West

 

West end return

 

East end return

 

South Section - facing East

 

Proposed layout - South section is at the top so arguably the view is upside down!

Edited December 6, 2023 by APT Fan
Response to Comments to clarify the pictures

[AdeMoore]

Hi APT, Nice space you have created there.

With the insulation and windows a truly all year round space.

I can’t comment on your chosen era or DCC I do neither!

I’m presuming 4mm 00 gauge?

But for me I’d buy some boxes of track and some joiners and have a play around with it.

You’ve plenty of space to do the WCML justice.

Some advice I read and followed was get some trains running first.

I was going down the road of I’ll spilt the layout up into chunks and concentrate on bringing an area up to scenically done one area at a time. Good idea but you lose interest.

As a lone modeller and not in a club or anything I use YouTube extensively.

I can offer some inspiration for you there!

Everad Junction https://youtube.com/@EverardJunction?si=3tUJ80H5Ogo6VHVk with Richard has a thread on here too. More your era.

Dean Park https://youtube.com/@DeanPark?si=DfKYpqmt19PVrbMT you’ll have to scroll right back on the video tab to get some building content.

Dave at McKinley for what’s ultimately  achievable, and train automation though not autonomously https://youtube.com/@dattouk?si=sb8bLGTsBOFyu936https://youtube.com/@dattouk?si=sb8bLGTsBOFyu936

Richard at New Junction this garage version is not to far into the build so inspiration there. ECML though. https://youtube.com/@NewJunction?si=5AEyD2pcEYpnsOsA 

Finally the master in my opinion Canadian based and HO scale but amazing results that are transferrable to any scale Boomer! https://youtube.com/@boomerdioramas?si=X9TE298Cu84XkuLY .

Those will keep you inspired.

Best thing I can leave with is get your track sound deadening material right makes a huge difference to your enjoyment.

I actually use 5mm foam board.

I got trains running now I’m away!

 All the best with it I’ll be following along.

Cheers

Edited December 3, 2023 by AdeMoore

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Fully frame the plywood, it will sag like b*ggery otherwise.

 

Mike.

[spamcan61]

50 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Fully frame the plywood, it will sag like b*ggery otherwise.

 

Mike.

... and make sure all the woodwork is sealed with varnish/paint.

[BachelorBoy]

4 hours ago, AdeMoore said:

 

Finally the master in my opinion Canadian based and HO scale but amazing results that are transferrable to any scale Boomer! https://youtube.com/@boomerdioramas?si=X9TE298Cu84XkuLY .

Those will keep you inspired.

 

 

An extra vote from me for Boomer. He is incredible. He seems like a talented artist who decided, instead of painting or sculpture, he'd model railways.

 

[APT Fan]

6 hours ago, AdeMoore said:

SNIP

 

 

Thanks for the reply, yes OO gauge, unfortunately I was unable to add tags to the post and could find absolutely no option to enable 'full editing' - I'm using Chrome, I'm not sure why full editing isn't the default? Anyway, I have seen the Everard / Dean Park and New Junction channels but not the Boomer one, thanks for that! I think I've seen some good automation stuff on the Chadwick park channel, lots of really good information on these channels.

 

I do have a few boxes of flexitrack and some set piece 3rd and 4th radius curves. The plan was to use the set 3rd and 4th curves and use them as a reference for 5th and 6th radius curves using the flexitrack for the high speed lines. I've heard Richard (Everard) mention that it looks more realistic to have gradual curves but with me having to get four tracks through such a narrow return, I think that will be impractical and a compromise I have to accept given the setup. I have had a loop of track setup with the 4th radius curves and trains ran well and fast even though I was still completing the extra under board bracing at the time. I was also going to use concrete sleeper track for the outer fast lines and wooden sleepers for the inner local lines - something that I vaguely remember seeing frequently on the WCML back in the 80s. I was thinking of using cork underlay with individual runs for each line and large sections under the fiddle area.

[AndrueC]

You could always consider modelling in N which would give you double the room ;)

[APT Fan]

3 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Fully frame the plywood, it will sag like b*ggery otherwise.

 

Mike.

With 12mm ply? Not seen any signs so far, its been in 12 months. The gaps between the CLS bearers are 500mm and the board is effectively 'stretched' between them when screwed in. I have added quite a bit more under board bracing where I've had to piece the baseboard, one side is made up of single pieces of 900mm width, the other side is pieced with two boards of 600mm + 300mm widths. So far I've just used up the CLS off cuts but have more timber which is initially earmarked to make the backboard up stands but any spare could be used for extra bracing, I'll keep an eye on it. The Baseboard has been painted with exterior undercoat. I picked up the LED batton lighting yesterday, two 4ft and a 5ft for the middle between the windows, hopefully get them in today.

[NBL]

With the space you have I would drop any constraints of radii and try get the best flowing curves that you can, you could gently curve all the track rather than rigid straights and abrupt curves

[ISW]

14 hours ago, APT Fan said:

Any comments, advice, suggestions and criticisms would be very much appreciated. Thanks. 

Here's my two-pence worth:

1. Consider just 2 main lines for the majority of the layout, with 2 loop tracks 'where necessary'. That'll make for a little more interest, and you can leave 2 trains running while 'operating' the other 2. It also makes it easer to plan/fit the curves at the ends of the loft.
2. With all that space you need to avoid 'flat earth' syndrome. I'd be looking at some flying junctions (or similar) and elevated sections to add interest.
3. It might help to choose a WCML station as the basis of your layout (you might have room for 2?). That could be as complicated as (say) Preston or as simple as (say) Lichfield Trent Valley. The latter providing the added interest of a high level platform and connecting freight curve.
4. Have you checked your 'reach'? It looks a long way to the back of the baseboards (especially the corners) and, while this is easy with unpopulated baseboards, this'll get harder (and more damaging) once the scenics / tracks are in place. Make sure your baseboards can take your weight. You 'will' be climbing on them at some stage; I was and still am!
5. Consider using 'modules' for the scenics, that can be individually lifted out to work on them.
6. Plan, plan, and plan again. I had my entire 2-level layout drawn up (in 3DPlanIt) before I even started tracklaying. I even had the baseboards in the design, so that I could ensure the turnouts were not 'over' a cross-member, making servo installation impossible. I made the conscious decision to include a full loop on the Lower Level (even though I didn't need it) to allow me to run trains before I had the Upper Level built. That gave me chance to 'run trains' much earlier, and iron out any issues. All my track was installed 'over' a full-scale printout of the layout (yes, that did involve a lot of taping together of A4 sheets!). It was worth it though as it was easy to locate all the turnouts and curves just by 'following the lines' and it all fit as 'planned'.
7. You are going to have some long curves, so make sure to include transition curves at each end (the Drawing software will probably do this for you). Equally, you are going to have some long straights. These are hard to get 'straight'. I used a 1m steel straight edge to ensure my tracks were as straight as I could get them. Try to add some 'curves' into the straights to make it more interesting to look at.
8. Build yourself a 'test plank'. Mine was only 1m long of double track with a crossover with servo operated points and fully ballasted, but it allowed me to 'try out' most of the building methods and electrical wiring / plugs / sockets / etc before I committed to the main layout. That was really useful.

I hope the above is 'useful' at least in some respects / aspects.

 

Ian

[ISW]

25 minutes ago, APT Fan said:

With 12mm ply? Not seen any signs so far, its been in 12 months.

I'd say yes, plus it's not worth the risk. Everard Junction made this mistake on his Mk1 layout and had to rip the whole thing out a few years back (ouch). Yes, he was using cheap baseboard timber (OSB?) but it's a lesson worth learning.

 

Try to support the plywood at ~400/500mm centres in both directions. I used simple 44x18mm timber from B&Q screwed into the baseboards (I didn't glue anything; mistake?) and this has stood up okay so far (including taking my weight!). I drilled 25mm holes through the stiffeners to aid wiring later (it's neater than going 'around' the timber).

 

As I intimated earlier, it's these stiffener supports that then get in the way of any servos (or other point motors), so be careful with turnout placement (or plan the layout and locate the stiffeners accordingly - that's what I did).

 

Ian

[Pacific231G]

On 03/12/2023 at 12:01, ISW said:

Here's my two-pence worth:

1. You are going to have some long curves, so make sure to include transition curves at each end (the Drawing software will probably do this for you). Equally, you are going to have some long straights. These are hard to get 'straight'. I used a 1m steel straight edge to ensure my tracks were as straight as I could get them. Try to add some 'curves' into the straights to make it more interesting to look at.
2. Build yourself a 'test plank'. Mine was only 1m long of double track with a crossover with servo operated points and fully ballasted, but it allowed me to 'try out' most of the building methods and electrical wiring / plugs / sockets / etc before I committed to the main layout. That was really useful.

I hope the above is 'useful' at least in some respects / aspects.

 

Ian

Both very useful advice.

Trying to lay track dead straight is not easy (I'm not sure I've ever managed it) and the human eye can detect even the smallest deviation. What is can't detect so easily (or at all) are slight variations in a curve so it might be worth considering making your straight tracks very slightly curved (maybe 12 or 20 foot radius) even if the total displacement is only a couple of inches along the whole length between your end curves. It will also make looking at an approaching train far more interesting ( this applies to the big railway as well)  Though the prototype does have sections of dead straight track, very gentle curves are far more common.  Getting a consistent separation between tracks is also important and it's probably worth making up a template to aid that 

What I do find is that track planning software (and pencil and ruler track planning to be fair) does tend to lead me into planning with straight lines and fairly tight curves but introducing very gentle curves will look a whole lot better.

 

I also agree with the suggestion of modelling a two track rather than a four track section. It will certainly look longer and I rather envy our American counterparts who can authentically model single track main lines and still run the longest and heavier trains on them. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Pacific231G
missing words and typos

[The Johnster]

If you define 'serious' modelling as taking enough interest to buy magazine in the pre-internet world and come on sites like this one now, then I've been b*ggering around with little electric trains for 58 years, and in that time even I have managed to learn some stuff.  FWIW, here's my two penn'orth:-

 

.If the layout is to be permanently (semi-permanently means permanently) erected, there is absolutly nothing to be gained from saving weight or money on the baseboards or their supports, and something that maintains satisfactory level an firmness for a year may not do so under the dynamic load of trains moving about on top of it at scale APT speeds, or the static load of scenery, track, and models.  And everything to lose.  You only get one chance per layout to get this right, so make sure you get it right even if it is over-engineered; I agree fully with Mike.  Once the boards have track and scenery on them, you should be able to forget 'em.

 

.It's a lovely space, and there is nothing as frustrating as a layout that doesn't run reliably.  Long, flowing curves for high-speed running, and no setrack; it imposes restrictions that you do not need.  We would regard anything above a metre radius as a gentle curve on layouts, but scaled up this wouuld attract a severe speed restriction and checkrails.  Two metres is more realistic for 00 fast lines, but nobody has space for this and we have to compromise.

 

7 hours ago, NBL said:

With the space you have I would drop any constraints of radii and try get the best flowing curves that you can, you could gently curve all the track rather than rigid straights and abrupt curves

 

This.  Avoid straights and sharp curves, they scream trainset and curves look more natural in large spaces.  You will be able to avoid the setrack problem of 80' coaches at 30degree angles to each other even on R4 doing 160mph...

 

.You say the intention is to have relaxing trains runniing and making train running noise in the background, but I would include some sort of 'proper sidings on the scenic section', maybe a quarry or gravel pit, so that you will be able to do a bit of shunting if you ever feel the need.  Give it a headshunt so that you can make up or break down trains and spot-positon wagons while the main line does it's stuff in the background, and have it close to the operating position 'inside' the circuit where you can easily reach it.  Don't give it OLE.

 

.Your storage sidings, fiddle yard, is an awkward thing to operate in terms of driving in or out of it on to the running lines, especially the inner pair.  I think what you proably want from a 'watch the train go round' layout is to switch it on and sit back while it go doo dat voodoo dat it doo so well, and this would be more easily achieved by a more conventiional continuous circuit layout type of fiddle yard, a hidden section with loops off each running line storing alternative trains with each running line being a standalone independent 'system'. 

 

.Illuminate the layout from the side, your side, not above (the WCML does not run through the tropics), you will find this more restful and it will highlight the detail on the sides of your trains as well as the tops.  A dimmer switch and cool/warm cast control will enable low light for night running, which is very relaxing and pleasant but does not need total darkness.  Don't overdo the brightness of the layout or train lights, a very common error that looks horrible; tone it down and diffuse/reflect it.  Less is more,

 

I'm picturing an APT or a Pendolino hurtling through the night flat out, snaking as it leans into the Victorian curvature, occasional flash from the pans, smooth and steady, smell of rain and ozone in the air, pair of 87s humming along at 75 mph with a 2,000 ton intermodal on the slow lines...

 

Oh yeah, gimme sum dat stuff, and I'm a steam fan!

[John Besley]

And add a gap between each picture so it makes it easier to see and understand

[APT Fan]

Loft in winter daylight

 

Led lighting fitted - its very bright, probably too bright now!

 

The returns feel a bit tight for four tracks.

 

I've been experimenting with the curves

 

The fixed track is 4th radius.

 

Following the advice, I've been looking at the curves but I can't quite get my head around the 'gentle curve' concept? I was thinking that the four tracks would roughly run down the centre of both the South and North sections and the returns to give space either side for some features. I'm just not sure when to start curving from a straight.

Edited December 5, 2023 by APT Fan

[APT Fan]

On 03/12/2023 at 12:01, ISW said:

Here's my two-pence worth:

1. Consider just 2 main lines for the majority of the layout, with 2 loop tracks 'where necessary'. That'll make for a little more interest, and you can leave 2 trains running while 'operating' the other 2. It also makes it easer to plan/fit the curves at the ends of the loft.
2. With all that space you need to avoid 'flat earth' syndrome. I'd be looking at some flying junctions (or similar) and elevated sections to add interest.
3. It might help to choose a WCML station as the basis of your layout (you might have room for 2?). That could be as complicated as (say) Preston or as simple as (say) Lichfield Trent Valley. The latter providing the added interest of a high level platform and connecting freight curve.
4. Have you checked your 'reach'? It looks a long way to the back of the baseboards (especially the corners) and, while this is easy with unpopulated baseboards, this'll get harder (and more damaging) once the scenics / tracks are in place. Make sure your baseboards can take your weight. You 'will' be climbing on them at some stage; I was and still am!
5. Consider using 'modules' for the scenics, that can be individually lifted out to work on them.
6. Plan, plan, and plan again. I had my entire 2-level layout drawn up (in 3DPlanIt) before I even started tracklaying. I even had the baseboards in the design, so that I could ensure the turnouts were not 'over' a cross-member, making servo installation impossible. I made the conscious decision to include a full loop on the Lower Level (even though I didn't need it) to allow me to run trains before I had the Upper Level built. That gave me chance to 'run trains' much earlier, and iron out any issues. All my track was installed 'over' a full-scale printout of the layout (yes, that did involve a lot of taping together of A4 sheets!). It was worth it though as it was easy to locate all the turnouts and curves just by 'following the lines' and it all fit as 'planned'.
7. You are going to have some long curves, so make sure to include transition curves at each end (the Drawing software will probably do this for you). Equally, you are going to have some long straights. These are hard to get 'straight'. I used a 1m steel straight edge to ensure my tracks were as straight as I could get them. Try to add some 'curves' into the straights to make it more interesting to look at.
8. Build yourself a 'test plank'. Mine was only 1m long of double track with a crossover with servo operated points and fully ballasted, but it allowed me to 'try out' most of the building methods and electrical wiring / plugs / sockets / etc before I committed to the main layout. That was really useful.

I hope the above is 'useful' at least in some respects / aspects.

 

Ian

 

I think I've got a four line WCML quite fixed in my head, its one of the things that make it unique and it feels appropriate given the length of the layout and the stock I have. I do think though that one of the most fascinating sections of the WCML is between Warrington and Wigan where it goes under the Liverpool to Manchester and it separates into two tracks passes the old Vulcan Works before becoming four tracks again but would be completely unfeasible to build. Any of those four line stations from Crewe to Preston would make a great project

 

I think I'm okay for reach and can get to the corner because the returns have access gaps behind for practical reasons. Is 3DPlanIt a good investment? Many CAD and drawing packages have dreadful interfaces nowadays, sometimes I feel the software designers seem to be going backwards. Have you found the software accurate when you go from screen to board. I remember years ago in the car industry designing car wiring harnesses using CAD with some clever routing software and it never quite got it right and you could only find all the issues after you'd built a prototype and tried fitting it in the Body in white. Its aircraft for me nowadays and not a lot has changed, well not as much as you'd wish.

[AdeMoore]

1 hour ago, APT Fan said:

 

 

The returns feel a bit tight for four tracks.

 

I've been experimenting with the curves

 

The fixed track is 4th radius.

 

Following the advice, I've been looking at the curves but I can't quite get my head around the 'gentle curve' concept? I was thinking that the four tracks would roughly run down the centre of both the South and North sections and the returns to give space either side for some features. I'm just not sure when to start curving from a straight.

Never have it too bright in my opinion at my age!

on the curves funny enough 4th radius is generous on a lot of layouts mine included! But looks tight on your generous space! The flexy looks better and really I’d start the curve maybe 2 lengths of track before that with the space you have real nice gentle curve. No need to go straight bang up the middle of the board either as someone mentioned above. Not going parallel to the edges of the boards adds interest and looks better on the eye.

Below looks a helpful aid no personal experience.

 

[ISW]

1 hour ago, APT Fan said:

Following the advice, I've been looking at the curves but I can't quite get my head around the 'gentle curve' concept?

By which they mean sweeping curves of long length and very large radii (almost, but not quite, straight). Not easy to do, but look great.

 

Ian

[ISW]

2 hours ago, APT Fan said:

I was thinking that the four tracks would roughly run down the centre of both the South and North sections and the returns to give space either side for some features. I'm just not sure when to start curving from a straight.

If it helps, think about the 'racing line' that race cars take through a corner. They start out to the left (of a RH bend), swoop into the apex on the right, and end up on the LH side of the track again. This increases the radius of the curve through the bend.

 

They do not drive "... roughly run down the centre ..." as you put it.

 

Ian

[ISW]

On 03/12/2023 at 11:16, APT Fan said:

I was thinking of using cork underlay with individual runs for each line and large sections under the fiddle area.

 

Here's an option for you, 3mm closed-cell foam. I bought mine from Homebase. It costs ~£40 for the 10m2. I think it's sound-deadening properties are better than cork.

 

Ian

[stivesnick]

Hi 

 

If you are fixed on a 4 track WCML, how important is having some sidings or a freight terminal? It might be worth getting hold of a rail atlas or book of track plans to find a location that has some interesting operation.

 

Nick 

[APT Fan]

I've been trying drawing packages but to be honest I'm struggling a bit, some awful interfaces out there. Just the basics of setting up the layout size, which should be straight forward and on page 1 of the manual, I think I found it buried on about page 30 of manual!  I've tried 3DPlanIT, SCARM, XtrkCAD and AnyRail and at the moment AnyRail is probably coming out on top but probably because it includes the Peco Streamline library and allows you to bend the flex track.

 

Any views? Thanks

[ISW]

17 minutes ago, APT Fan said:

I've been trying drawing packages but to be honest I'm struggling a bit, some awful interfaces out there. Just the basics of setting up the layout size, which should be straight forward and on page 1 of the manual, I think I found it buried on about page 30 of manual!

I found that, with 3DPlanIt it was 'essential' to work through each of the tutorial examples step-by-step to learn the interface (yes, they are stretching the definition ...). In fact, I recall going through them twice to get to grips with the interface and program. However, it was worth it.

 

19 minutes ago, APT Fan said:

because it includes the Peco Streamline library and allows you to bend the flex track.

There is a Peco Streamline (Code-100) library with the 3DPlanIt program. I used it all the time for my layout design.

 

At least 3DPlanIt is actually 3D (I've no experience of the other programs you mention, so can't comment on their abilities), even though this is 'tenuous' at best. However, it does produce quite nice 'renders' of the layout in 3D. In addition, you can actually 'drive' a train around the layout, which I found to be quite fun & annoying in equal measures. It will also 'video capture' your driving, so here is an example [1] of me driving around part of my 2-level layout before the Upper Level was even built:

 

Yes yes, I know there are bits of 'flying track' and I haven't 'mastered' the art of tunnel openings, but the result is surprisingly close to reality on the actual layout!

 

[1] - this is my fist attempt at embedding a video in an RMWeb posting, so apologies for any 'errors'

 

Ian