Very Confused!

[123*]

Hi all, 

 

Hope you are well. 

 

I am hoping you may be able to help with my first big layout. 

 

I have been given permission from the better half to turn one of our spare bedrooms into a space for the layout. 

 

The room has the following dimensions 3.77m x 2.95m, obviously I will lose a slight amount of this due to the door opening inwards, I have attached an image which shows the room layout. 

 

I would like to model a modern day Darlington station, Thornaby and Tees Yard. Although I am not too bothered about every detail and every track being an exact replica I would like it to be largely similar. I would like it to at least have some capacity for it to be a tail chaser to allow for some continuous running. I am thinking perhaps the main part of the layout dedicated to Darlington to Thornaby but some kind of nod to ECML fast running, perhaps a 'fast line' that disappears into a tunnel and behind scenery before re-appearing on the opposite side of the layout in the background? 

 

I would like Darlington station to modelled from the south end, giving the visuals of the Saltburn line and ECML merging, I am thinking perhaps modelling half of the station before a scenic break? 

 

Thornaby station is fairly straightforward to replicate, and whilst Tees Yard slightly more difficult it could be made as simple or complex as required, perhaps just a few roads to double up as a fiddle yard? 

 

I have attached the Traksy view of Darlington to show the track plan layout. 

 

Not sure if what I'm asking for is doable or whether people have any suggestions on how to achieve this? I have been playing around with AnyRail but just tying myself in knots! 

 

Any help would hugely be appreciated. 

 

Thanks! 

 

 

 

 

[KingEdwardII]

OO gauge?

[123*]

Yes, sorry! 

 

Knew I'd forgotten something!

[ISW]

2 hours ago, 123* said:

Any help would hugely be appreciated. 

I think your best bet, at this early stage, is to get some track layout software (eg: AnyRail) and draw out some of your proposed turnout fans / junctions. You'll soon realise (like I did!) that these take up huge lengths of baseboard and that 'scaling back' becomes the order-of-the-day.

 

For my OO layout I wanted to model Burton-on-Trent to Branston, including the Leicester Line Junction, the MPD and Branston Sidings. Boy, was I in for a shock when I drew out just the station (4-tracks with Island platform) and the turnout fan at the south end; over 3m long! And I had much 'compressed' the station length as well.

 

I have a bedroom space of ~5m x 4m and this (below) is what I ended up with (note: this is just the Upper Level, the tracks are in a folded-eight configuration continuing on a Lower Level as a tail-chaser). I managed to get the station (RH side), a 'reduced 'Leicester Line Junction (LH Side) and a much reduced MPD (Top). The Green bits are an 'interpretation' of some Brewery Tracks (Bottom). I originally drew the track layout in the 3DPlanIt software (a very old version):

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ian

[ITG]

A key consideration is your reach. Many folk would advocate baseboards of around 600mm (2’) deep, or 750mm max. That leaves a decent space in the centre for the operating well.

I’m not familiar with the stations or area you mention, but by the looks of the schematic diagram of Darlington, I’d suggest it would be nigh on impossible to get that in, either in length or depth. You’ll probably need to be considering at least 6 coach/vehicle ECML trains, so in round figures that’s 2m platform length, leaving only 1.77m for the station throat and radii at both ends. At a quick glance, from your diagram, it looks like there’s 8-10 turnouts in line at each end of the platforms. If you used Peco Streamline small radius turnouts at 185mm long each, that’s 1.5 - 1.8metres length of throat at each end.

I suggest you get some track plan books, as even though they’re unlikely to have plans of your dimensions, at least it will give some indication of the possible geometry. And/or try Anyrail - the time you spend learning the software will pay huge dividends later on.

Ian

[RobinofLoxley]

Following from what @ISW said, @123* you have just over half the space. It will take some fitting in. What is your era, and can you be more precise about what you are hoping to run? In terms of stock that is. 

 

The door will be a pain - to get in you will need a lift out section or a duck under. Lift out is more difficult. 

 

Can you possibly sketch out the structure showing the different elements you want on a bit of paper?

[Chimer]

To give you some idea of what you're trying to fit in, this is the left hand Doncaster throat from South Junction to the platforms, drawn in XTrackCad using Streamline medium points and 3" wide platforms.  With space at each end to turn the mainlines down into a roundy-roundy setup, you're looking at 16 feet or so minimum ...

 

Best of luck!

[RobinofLoxley]

That drawing shows how hard it can be with quite typical room space in OO, to represent something that is predominantly straight when the circumstances require almost everything to be bent in some way in order for them to fit. And that drawing which follows the Traksy pattern exactly, doesnt even have the required length of bay platform. So I have done the bending - not a job for a beginner in Anyrail!

 

Its also hard to represent junctions because the very name implies divergence. In this case the main line and the Saltburn line (is that the line of the original Stockton-Darlington??) diverge at 90 degrees and cant be represented, they have to be laid together in the round. This puts Thornaby station on the opposite side from Darlington, and ideally the yard section would be beyond, but there isnt really the necessary space. There's also the question how the trains operate from Darlington -Thornaby as Darlo platforms are bay so cant form a loop; so what i have done is create sidings 'beyond' Thornaby where DMU's can change tracks as though arriving from distance.

 

The yard had to go alongside Thornaby, and being modern had to close at the end so that locos can escape (which is the pattern in the modern yard on Teesside as far as I could see on Railmapsonline). I left one open at A, which was put the specifically to hold an HST/Azuma/whatever to clear the main line.

 

There is further room at B to create another fan of sidings, I havn't drawn them in. There would be a huge amount of fine tuning to do anyway, as the drawn layout is slightly larger one way than the dimensions given, and the door situation isn't detemined (the first question is always can it be reversed or made into a slider). Many tweaks would be needed to get the darlo station platforms into better proportions than shown. The list is endless....

 

Note - I later discovered that I had used the wrong room footprint, I carelessly used 2.95M x 2.95M. So it fits but doesn't use all the space. I have redrawn a correction but it needs more work and i wont do that if there's no interest..

Edited December 10, 2023 by RobinofLoxley
Important correction

[john new]

Several decades back I started to draft an article on layout planning that didn't happen but the basic principles and order of determination are still in my mind:-

1. Determine what you actually want to do with it when you have finished it - round and round, end to end, shunting or a mixture? (You answered that in the OP.) For some people though the interest is in the planning and/or just building a layout  that satisfies them rather than running the end result.
2. Have I a company, period or geographic area I want to model or is it to be mostly rule 1? (NB You have selected that already = contemporary South Durham/Teesside).
3. What space have I got available, and the related issue of permanent versus portable/occasionally dismantlable for visitors staying over etc. 
4. Then it gets tricky - if you have already got stock etc., in hand can that scale fit what I want into the space available at (3)?
5. If space isn't sufficient then either revise the scale to model in downwards or revisit (1) & (2) to find the compromise that can be made to fit the space available.

My guess with your desire as set out in the OP is you are either going to have to stick with the Darlington - Teesside scenario you outlined in the OP by dropping it down to TT or N gauge so it fits or alternatively bend the local geography a bit so you still get the flavour of the area.

 

What is it/are the key features?

• The operating pattern
• The overhead wires of the ECML and related traction
• Darlington BankTop station
• The historic bits like Skerne Bridge etc., etc.

Just some thoughts before you start building something that won't satisfy you further down the build path.

[RobinofLoxley]

Very sensible John. Probably the worst scenario is having acquired stock, then having to bend everything else to fit that.

 

I dont know when Darlo was last modernised, that will have a bearing on the options, if the modernsied station is to be the centrepiece

[123*]

Hi all, 

 

First of all, wow, thank you all so much for your responses and efforts! 

 

I downloaded AnyRail and had a bit of a play about and was pretty disappointed with what I could produce before I ran out of room! 

 

A few points, I could use the other spare room, it has a slightly larger area but a slightly more difficult shape to work with? It is listed as Bedroom 5 on the image I have attached, I could use this room if people think that would allow a better layout? 

 

As far as stock goes, it will be primarily Northern, 150's, 142's etc with the odd Azuma on diversion and a Class 66 kicking about. 

 

I have sketched down what I would broadly like, I would really like the bay platforms at Darlington to be included, my thinking was to almost switch round the layout of Darlington and have a 'fast line' with catenary branching off and going off scene for a bit before reappearing on the other side and the Saltburn line going straight on, where as in reality this is the other way round. 

 

I'm not sure on whether this is workable? Happy for Tees Yard to only be a couple of roads if required. 

 

Thank you all again! 

[ISW]

40 minutes ago, 123* said:

I downloaded AnyRail and had a bit of a play about and was pretty disappointed with what I could produce before I ran out of room! 

 

I thought you would. Happened to me too.

 

To me, the overriding 'feature' of Darlington station is that the 'fasts' pass down the side of the station, outside of the overall roof. I would want to retain that in a layout. So, if you put the 'fasts' behind the station, you can effectively 'hide' the tight curves required to get around the corner of the layout behind the station structure. Just a thought ...

 

Ian

[Mark Saunders]

2 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

I don't know when Darlo was last modernised, that will have a bearing on the options, if the modernsied station is to be the centrepiece

Darlington was resignalled and relayed under the 1991 electrification, hence why the reduced number of signals and pointwork.

[DCB]

Like many other once grand stations Darlington is a big and wide piece of real estate without much track, pretty much the opposite of an ideal location to model  @Robin of Loxley  has designed a great layout which if it was in N gauge would be capable of handling 8 coach Azumas and almost 2+7 HSTs.  I just think its too cramped  in 00 as you end up with 2 + 3 HST formations for the 4 coach long platforms,  with only 12 feet you will struggle to get even 7 coach  plaforms in 00.  I just feel it's squeezing a quart into a 1/2 litre box.

[melmerby]

I've got platforms that will hold 7 coaches plus loco but that is in 6.5m x 3.5m (00), about twice your original room suggestion.

Curves on running lines are mainly 36" radius

[john new]

Last time I saw Tees Yard it was almost derelict with very few sidings.

[The Johnster]

At the initial planning stages of a new layout, I suggest the following rule of thumb; assuming we are talking about a through station on a continuous run layout with the fiddle yard at the rear. 

 

1) Measure the lenght of the open run between the fiddle yard scenic breaks.

2) The maximum practical length of your platforms and longest trains will be an approximate ball-park third of this distance.

3) This is because the station requires space at both ends for turnouts and junctions.   The areas alongside these station throats can be used for goods depot, loco shed, carriage siding, &c

4) Thus, if you have a scenic run of 18feet, a fair size for a garage or spare room, your longest train, your longest train will be six feet long,  In 00 that's six mk1 coaches and the loco, or four mk3s and the HST power cars.  That is not long enough for a reasonable looking main line train.

 

So, what do we think is a reasonable looking main line train?  We can probably get away with nine mk2s and a loco, typical of the 70s, which is about 9 feet (a 64' scale length mk1 or 2 is 10 inches long, and a 40 or a Peak is another foot).  My rule of thumb suggests that one would need 27 feet of clear scenic run, and assuming 3' radius curves at each end of the layout, that's 21 feet, minimum. 

 

The next question is 'how much compromise are we prepard to accept, given that the prime aim is to make the layout as realistic as we practically can?   Are we willing to lose some train length, or lessen the radius of the end curves, each of which will enable more to be crammed in at the expense of realism.  WE usually think 3' radius curves are ok to represent the gentle curvature of fast main lines, as it's the largest radius Peco make Streamline points in, but in fact this radius scaled up to ful size would attract an extermely severe speed restriction...

[tom s]

By no means pretty and couldn't figure how to get both fast lines on, but roughly getting an idea of what would fit along the longest side of the room in 00 scale.

[tom s]

I think the feel of Darlington can be captured in 00 in the space but a drop to N might be needed for more.

Edited December 6, 2023 by tom s

[RobinofLoxley]

4 hours ago, tom s said:

I think the feel of Darlington can be captured in 00 in the space but a drop to N might be needed for more.

Thats a great photo thanks. I didnt realise the platforms curved like that. I have curved them (at the far end) out of necessity. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by RobinofLoxley

[RobinofLoxley]

@123* thanks for posting the drawing - you can see how far out you are from the rough in-your-head drawing to the real space required for Darlington station for example. 

 

I dont think the other bedroom is any better although it has a slightly longer perimeter the door position is worse, unless in either case the door can either be made to open outwards from the room or slide. 

 

Being a roundy you have to get inside to operate, would you do this by crawling under the structure or having a hinged section?

 

Forgot to add - long tunnel, does it fit really? Plus it has to all be liftable for access. Also hides a major train for half the run??

 

Interesting to note in the photo a 5car HST approaching....

Edited December 6, 2023 by RobinofLoxley

[john new]

10 hours ago, The Johnster said:

At the initial planning stages of a new layout, I suggest the following rule of thumb; assuming we are talking about a through station on a continuous run layout with the fiddle yard at the rear. 

 

1) Measure the lenght of the open run between the fiddle yard scenic breaks.

2) The maximum practical length of your platforms and longest trains will be an approximate ball-park third of this distance.

3) This is because the station requires space at both ends for turnouts and junctions.   The areas alongside these station throats can be used for goods depot, loco shed, carriage siding, &c

4) Thus, if you have a scenic run of 18feet, a fair size for a garage or spare room, your longest train, your longest train will be six feet long,  In 00 that's six mk1 coaches and the loco, or four mk3s and the HST power cars.  That is not long enough for a reasonable looking main line train.

 

So, what do we think is a reasonable looking main line train?  We can probably get away with nine mk2s and a loco, typical of the 70s, which is about 9 feet (a 64' scale length mk1 or 2 is 10 inches long, and a 40 or a Peak is another foot).  My rule of thumb suggests that one would need 27 feet of clear scenic run, and assuming 3' radius curves at each end of the layout, that's 21 feet, minimum. 

 

The next question is 'how much compromise are we prepard to accept, given that the prime aim is to make the layout as realistic as we practically can?   Are we willing to lose some train length, or lessen the radius of the end curves, each of which will enable more to be crammed in at the expense of realism.  WE usually think 3' radius curves are ok to represent the gentle curvature of fast main lines, as it's the largest radius Peco make Streamline points in, but in fact this radius scaled up to ful size would attract an extermely severe speed restriction...

Length of train? Years ago I placed several rakes alongside each other and reckoned 5 Mk 1s looked enough to represent the 7 used on the NYMR. What is also needed if running truncated length trains is some sort of scenic break to split the view so that the full length of train isn’t seen in one full length. Darlington’s over roof would achieve that for trains going through the train sheds, or if the viewer had the through lines at the back, when running fast.

 

At the club open day a couple of weeks back I ran a freight round our test track which must have been around 5ft long. Probably short by real standards but looked long even on this largeish layout with no view blocking items. This will also vary by era as modern bogie freights are much longer than those of the four-wheel wagon era.

 

[RobinofLoxley]

3 hours ago, john new said:

Length of train? Years ago I placed several rakes alongside each other and reckoned 5 Mk 1s looked enough to represent the 7 used on the NYMR. What is also needed if running truncated length trains is some sort of scenic break to split the view so that the full length of train isn’t seen in one full length. Darlington’s over roof would achieve that for trains going through the train sheds, or if the viewer had the through lines at the back, when running fast.

 

At the club open day a couple of weeks back I ran a freight round our test track which must have been around 5ft long. Probably short by real standards but looked long even on this largeish layout with no view blocking items. This will also vary by era as modern bogie freights are much longer than those of the four-wheel wagon era.

 

I would agree with this, part of the train looking to be appropriate size is the overall surroundings and part is the size of specific model items such as platforms.

 

In this particular situation the 'straight' run behind the station is completely open but a train that is nearly half the room length at 1.5M is going to dominate the scene even if its slightly short as a prototype. Handy then that there's a photo with a 5-car train and it looks fine. As it happens I've opened up the platforms to 1.4M curving them in as per the prototype.

 

On the plan I've drawn up the longest open run for an express is actually on the opposite side to the station. Its quite exposed.

[Chimer]

This is an attempt to capture the "spirit of Darlington" in the space available in bedroom 5.  I think I've only lost the "Up sidings" from the original schematic.  The  larger of the 2 rectangles over the platforms is meant to represent the canopies and the other the main station building, the latter trying to act as a view blocker for the horrible tight 90 degree turns required in the bottom right corner.  The canopies would have to be too grimy to see through at the right hand end!  It would obviously be easier to hide the turns with some roads and buildings above track level in the corner, but that wouldn't look at all like the original.  Compromises, compromises

 

 

 

 

[RobinofLoxley]

Interesting exercise @Chimer in stuffing a corner. Platform length is a problem, which might be mitigated if you took out one or other of the relief lines; I'm not sure if they are actually there according to that picture.

 

On a related subject,i was just looking at the plan I drew up and noticed that I had drawn it on a footprint of 2.95M square, when it should have been 2.95 x 3.77M, so I actually have 80cm to spare in the long direction. So theoretically I can increase platform length by that amount.