Programming decoders fitted with 'Stay Alive'

[Fordbank]

I have recently fitted a DCC Concepts Zen Black decoder plus DCC Concepts 'Super High Power' Stay alive to an early model Bachmann class 66 as a ( rather expensive) cure for poor running due to the absence of pickups on the front axle of each bogie ( -a problem later addressed by Bachmann on later class 66 models.). 

 

The modification worked well and the model tested encouragingly over all track configurations; however I appear to have encountered a problem. When I subsequently attempted to change the CVs  on the programming track I received the message  " Track Overload  - Try again?"

Needless to say trying again produced similar results.  I checked the decoder programming procedure with two other locos and it worked fine.  

Is there a compatability problem between my controller and programming  decoders with wired in Stay Alive capacitors?

The controller is a ZTC 511.

I realise that the next step should be to disconnect the Stay Alive and try again, but I wish to avoid having to resolder connections between decoder and capacitor every time I need to change a CV.

Is this a problem unique to ZTC controllers?

Any adfvice would be welcome,

Thanks in advance,

Andy

[Nigelcliffe]

Whilst some stay-alives can cause programming problems, most do not.   Whether you encounter the problem will depend on both the decoder and the programming device.   

 

If you can,  programming-on-the-main  won't encounter these problems, but I have no idea whether ZTC supports that.  

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 minute ago, Nigelcliffe said:

programming-on-the-main  won't encounter these problems, but I have no idea whether ZTC supports that.  

It didn't based on experience of a friend's ZTC511 nearly 20 years ago, but I suppose he possibility of subsequent upgrades has to be considered.

[peterm1]

Strange to see the trouble you're having with this. I have a mix of Lais stay alives and home made (by me) and have no trouble with reading or writing. I make up the small, simple charging circuit.  If a two wire stay alive can be used, you could try one of the Lais, which are not expensive.

 

Another way if there's room, is to put a small spst in one of the stay alive wires.

[RAF96]

The essential thing to consider when programming on the service track (not the main) is that the controller if it has separate Track and Prog outputs will send a short low power burst to the decoder, which likely will be soaked into the stay alive and the decoder will fail to program.

If your controller does not have a separate Prog output then it effectively programs on the main at full potential, hence the stay alive will already be charged and programming will be accepted.

The Hornby HM7K decoders have switched logic from charging on the move (which was to preclude programming problems) to charging when stationary but with a delay that allows a programming burst to hit the decoder before their power bank (stay-alive) charging access kicks in.

Edited December 10, 2023 by RAF96

[Kaput]

ESU decoders can be a little funky at programming when a 2 wire stay alive is connected.

[Fordbank]

Thanks to all who responded to this query.

When posting I had been under the misapprehension that ZTC had ceased trading. How wrong I was!

I eventually tried their helpline at Taunton Controls Ltd. and was met with truly excellent and knowledgeable advice.

Apparently the early model ZTC 511s do not like capacitors. ( Early version 511s programme at very low voltage – typically around 1v - to protect the decoder and this voltage is exceeded by that stored in the stay alive. Later versions of ZTC controllers I am assured have been modified to accept the fitting of capacitors.)

{The wonderful man at ZTC even offered to programme the decoder to my specification for free if I could deliver 66612 to him. I couldn’t.}

My solution was to dig out an as-yet-unused Lenz Compact controller and connect it to my test track/shunting plank, Slutchers Lane.

The Lenz was happy programming with stay alive capacitors.

 

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

[Crosland]

17 hours ago, Fordbank said:

 

Apparently the early model ZTC 511s do not like capacitors. ( Early version 511s programme at very low voltage – typically around 1v - to protect the decoder and this voltage is exceeded by that stored in the stay alive.

 

If that's really what you were told, then they are not knowledgeable. No DCC decoder can be programmed at 1 V.

 

What they probably meant was that there is only a very low current available for programming and the very high inrush current to charge the stay-alive triggers an overload detection.

 

This can also be an issue when trying to turn the power on for a layout with many stay-alive fitted locos. Better decoder/stay-alive combos will limit the charging current.

 

[Fordbank]

1 hour ago, Crosland said:

What they probably meant was that there is only a very low current available for programming and the very high inrush current to charge the stay-alive triggers an overload detection.

 

That is quite probably what they said, but probably not what I remembered.

Anyway it sounds about right, and Taunton Controls say that they have modified the ZTC 611 to prevent the same problem recurring.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[RAF96]

21 hours ago, Crosland said:

This can also be an issue when trying to turn the power on for a layout with many stay-alive fitted locos. Better decoder/stay-alive combos will limit the charging current.

Hornby have gotten round this layout inrush trip as stated by having a delay after initial power up, aided by their HM7K series decoders joining the Bluetooth mesh one by one as polled, rather than all coming on line at once.

[SteveM666]

As has been said, programming on main (if available) will get round this issue. Although I had not experienced the issue with my home made stay alive, I connected mine via a mini plug and socket (cheap as chips on Amazon and eBay) in case I had an issue.