ESU DECODER QUESTIONS

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Please allow me to say straight away that I am not a DCC enthusiast and 99% of what I read or am told goes right over my head, but to an extent I have learnt how to do VERY basic things like change loco addresses.

 

I use Digitrax and all my chips so far have been SOUNDTRAX. I now have a loco which comes factory fitted with a ESU chip and that has somewhat thrown me.

 

I don't like the loco's 'take-off' speed and hope to lower it and I want to change the direction of travel so that it runs tender first in forward mode.

 

I have looked up ESU decoders and it seems to me that CV2 is linked to starting speed - how do I attempt to set the take-off speed lower?

 

Also I see that loco direction is linked to CV29 - how do I change direction?

 

I apologise that these questions are soooooooooo basic and I genuinely wish that my brain was more DCC friendly, but please take pity on me and give me the advice I need.

 

Many thanks

 

Paul

Edited January 8 by TEAMYAKIMA

[WIMorrison]

Read the value in CV29 and if it is even then ADD 1 and write the new value. If the value you read is ODD then subtract 1 and write the new value. This will change the default direction for the loco.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 minute ago, WIMorrison said:

Read the value in CV29 and if it is even then ADD 1 and write the new value. If the value you read is ODD then subtract 1 and write the new value. This will change the default direction for the loco.

 

Thanks

[WIMorrison]

To change the acceleration simply increase the value in CV3, to make it brake more slowly increase the value in CV4.

 

To limit the max speed reduce CV5 and to increase the starting speed increase CV2.

 

You *may* need to change CV6 to compensate for the changes to CV5 and CV2. If you do change it change CV6 = CV2 + ((CV5-CV2)/3)*2

[TEAMYAKIMA]

On 13/12/2023 at 16:38, WIMorrison said:

To change the acceleration simply increase the value in CV3, to make it brake more slowly increase the value in CV4

 

Iain

 

Firstly, many apologies for not thanking you for that - all done now.

 

But secondly, I see that you live in Alton - are you part of the Alton show team?  The reason that I am working on my locos is that I am taking my layout to next month's Alton show - will you be there? If so, please come and say 'Hello'.

 

May I take this opportunity to ask you another question please?  I need to speed match my ESU fitted 0-6-0T to my Soundtrax fitted 2-8-2's, but only at one given speed. Let's assume it's 38% and so the 0-6-0T and the 2-8-2 should run at the same speed at 38% - it doesn't matter if their speeds don't match at 30% or at 50% as long as they match at 38%. I have looked at the ESU manual, but as usual I regret to admit that it makes no sense to me.

 

Hoping to meet you in person at Alton.

 

BW

 

Paul

[WIMorrison]

Paul,

 

I am not a member of the Alton club, but I will be helping another exhibitor on Sunday (the one who helped me at Warley 😂) - I will look you up when I am there.

 

To match speeds for locos at a given throttle isn't easy, but it can be done with a tape measure, a stop watch and changing of CVs. specifically CV67 to CV94 - and I would recommend using something like DecoderPro from JMRI to do the speed setting.

 

You will need to measure the speed of the two locos over a set distance using the tape measure and the stop watch, and adjust the CVs to make the 0-6-0 match the speed of the 2-8-2 at 38% throttle. Unfortunately this lies between CV77 and CV78 (speed step 11/12)- you can make your choice which one you make it match at.

 

 

I have checked the 2 x CVs that you need to play with in DecoderPro in this picture, you will also need to adjust the left and right to provide a gradual speed increase that matches the required CVs and is acceptable elsewhere.

 

 

If you do not have a PC available that can be attached then you will need to do it manually, either on the programming track or be using Ops Mode (Digitrax speak) to do whilst the loco is running on the track - but setting 28cvs this way will be a right pain in the butt. I suggest that you find someone with a Digitrax interface and a laptop, ideally who understands JMRI who can do it for you.

 

Unfortunately the easier way to do this using a program like iTrain or TrainController isn't available on your layout and you cant do it on another layout as the track voltages would be different , the tape measure and stopwatch will be the only suitable method.

 

If someone can think of a better way, please post it - this is the only way that I can suggest.

[Nigelcliffe]

23 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

........

 

To match speeds for locos at a given throttle isn't easy, but it can be done with a tape measure, a stop watch and changing of CVs. specifically CV67 to CV94 - and I would recommend using something like DecoderPro from JMRI to do the speed setting.

 

...........

 

If you do not have a PC available that can be attached then you will need to do it manually, either on the programming track or be using Ops Mode (Digitrax speak) to do whilst the loco is running on the track - but setting 28cvs this way will be a right pain in the butt. I suggest that you find someone with a Digitrax interface and a laptop, ideally who understands JMRI who can do it for you.

 

.............

 

Paul has the relevant hardware for JMRI connection to layout and command station ( I've talked stuff through on the phone to configure LocoNet devices via a LocoNet-to-Computer link).    Someone may have to demonstrate how it works, I think it's a tricky one to do remotely.   

 

Best arrangement is generous radius circuit,  so the reference loco can be timed at each of the key speeds, and then the secondary locos adjusted to match the same timings at the same key speeds.   Can run both at the same time and same speeds, with a gap between them, and see which is faster/slower, making adjustments to the speed curves as they are moving.   

 

If the speed matching is for double-heading, then additionally reducing the BEMF influence (another CV setting) will mean the locos will compensate internally for differences in speed (the faster one will take a little more draw-bar load and that will cause it to slow slightly).   

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

34 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Can run both at the same time and same speeds, with a gap between them, and see which is faster/slower, making adjustments to the speed curves as they are moving.   

I find this the easiest method matching to a designated 'standard' loco for the particular speed(s); and also find it convenient to temporarily remove the couplers from the loco being adjusted so it cannot couple  up accidentally due to this operator's misjudgements.

 

38 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

If the speed matching is for double-heading, then additionally reducing the BEMF influence, etc.

Back in the day, BEMF settings were often worth adjusting to avoid two or more locos visibly 'fighting' when coupled up for double heading or in a 'trot' going on or off shed. But the last fifteen years or thereabouts, all my Lenz and Zimo decoder purchases 'play nicely' applied to a fair variety of both RTR and kit mechanisms. This applies whether a decoder is at factory default BEMF, or one of the small number with adjusted BEMF, for coreless, or an iron core motor with a well off the norm response. Other's experiences?

[TEAMYAKIMA]

33 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

If the speed matching is for double-heading, then additionally reducing the BEMF influence (another CV setting) will mean the locos will compensate internally for differences in speed (the faster one will take a little more draw-bar load and that will cause it to slow slightly).   

 

Hello Nigel (and Iain)

 

No, it's not double heading. I have a set up on my industrial system as follows........................................

 

My industrial system (not my main lines) has short trains. But the three FY roads allocated to the industrial system include one very long road and two relatively long ones. The very long road is allocated to clockwise and the two relatively long ones are allocated to anti-clockwise.

 

The very long clockwise FY road stores three trains and the two other roads are each allocated two trains - so, a total of three clockwise and four anticlockwise trains.

 

All clockwise trains share the address 100 and all anti-clockwise trains share the address 200.

 

There are three dead sections on the very long FY road and two dead sections on each of the other two. Each of these dead sections are fed by a timing device and I activate the timers from the handset and all three (or two) timers are activated together.

 

So, let me give you an example, in fact the example which is the 'problem'..........................

 

Track 18 houses the 0-6-0T with a short train and a 2-8-2 with a short train and each train begins the day with the appropriate loco sitting in a dead section of approximately 12 inches length, but most importantly both locos are 'programmed' at a set speed. So, in this case they are both programmed as 200 and 200 is set at 38% i.e. they have both run into their respective dead sections at 38% but the power has not been turned off - the train simply stopped when the loco entered the dead section. When I want a train from track 18 to move into the scenic section, I use the handset to activate both timers together and they are both set at approximately 7 seconds. Consequently the leading train sets off for the scenic section at 38% and the trailing train sets off at the same setting and moves up the FY road and eventually hits the (now) dead section and stops. Meanwhile the first train runs through the scenic section and eventually enters the FY and stops when the loco gets onto the dead section.

 

Track 16 (the very long road) works similarly except that there are three trains, three dead sections and three timers.

 

The idea behind this was to make the industrial operation suitable for one man operation - otherwise we needed a second man just to move the trains up in the FY.

 

Each class of loco performs differently and so track 16 has three identical locos and so they all run at the same speed at any given speed setting e.g. for example 38% -consequently the trains don't catch each other up. The same is true on track 17 - two locos of the same make and class and so they don't catch each other up. But with track 18 the 2-8-2 runs much faster at any given speed setting and so it tends to catch up the 0-6-0t. Now, obviously this is only a problem when the 0-6-0T is the leading train and the 2-8-2 is the trailing loco.

 

What can happen is that the 2-8-2 catches up with the 0-6-0t's train and couples up to it - result is chaos!

 

The easy solution is to remove the springs in the Kadee couplings at the rear end of the 0-6-0T's train and in the coupler at the front of the 2-8-2, but I thought if I could either slow the 2-8-2 or speed up the 0-6-0T that would be a better solution.

 

So, TBH they don't have to exactly speed match, I simply want to slightly speed up the  0-6-0T or slow down the 2-8-2.

[Hamburger]

3 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I simply want to slightly speed up the  0-6-0T or slow down the 2-8-2.

Simply increase the value of CV5 on the ESU decoder (if not already set to maximum value 255) and/or decrease the value of CV5 on the 2-8-2.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

29 minutes ago, Hamburger said:

Simply increase the value of CV5 on the ESU decoder (if not already set to maximum value 255) and/or decrease the value of CV5 on the 2-8-2.

 

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as the rain stops and I can get down the garden and into the shed 🙂

[WIMorrison]

6 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I simply want to slightly speed up the  0-6-0T or slow down the 2-8-2.

 

Hmm, that isn't quite the question that you asked earlier that Nigel and I answered which is a pity because it is a lot simpler.

 

Assuming the top speed is acceptable currently, increase the value in CV6 to around ⅔ the difference between CV1 and CV5, then play about with it up and down to get the speed of them to match where you want them to match.

[Right Away]

I am not familiar with ESU. However, regarding the initial starting and having just Lenz and Zimo (non-sound) decoders, regardless of how much tweaking, there are certain Lenz fitted locomotives that simply cannot be made to creep away from rest, but swapping to a Zimo chip instantly transforms the performance in this respect. 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

Hmm, that isn't quite the question that you asked earlier that Nigel and I answered which is a pity because it is a lot simpler.

 

Assuming the top speed is acceptable currently, increase the value in CV6 to around ⅔ the difference between CV1 and CV5, then play about with it up and down to get the speed of them to match where you want them to match.

 

I regret that my general understanding of such matters is so abysmal that I often use terms and expressions that mean one thing to a non-expert like me and something completely different to an expert. Hence any misunderstanding is totally my fault and I apologise for any inconvenience caused by it. I can only thank all of you for your support and input - I have not been able to put this advice into practice tonight, but will do so tomorrow and report back.

[Hamburger]

5 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

Assuming the top speed is acceptable currently, increase the value in CV6 to around ⅔ the difference between CV1 and CV5, then play about with it up and down to get the speed of them to match where you want them to match.

Depending on the locomotive manufacturer it is probably an ESU multi-protocol decoder. In this case there is no CV6.

(And CV1 is a typo I think, should be CV2)

[Nigelcliffe]

13 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Hmm, that isn't quite the question that you asked earlier that Nigel and I answered which is a pity because it is a lot simpler.

 

Assuming the top speed is acceptable currently, increase the value in CV6 to around ⅔ the difference between CV1 and CV5, then play about with it up and down to get the speed of them to match where you want them to match.

 

As per Hamburger:   a)   you mean CV2 (not CV1).      b)   CV6 only exists in some ESU decoders, depends on the specific decoder type.    Paul's might be "DCC only" types (North American) which do have CV6, or might be "multiprotocol" (European) which don't.    Given his models are Chinese prototypes, there's no automatic assumption of one type or the other.  

Which means the solution is one of  - 

use CV2 and (mostly) CV5 and hope to hit something

full 28 point speed curve  (definitely works, but highest amount of effort)

CV5 and CV6 if it is a "DCC only" ESU decoder, and may get things close enough.  

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Oops!! - I did mean CV2, silly me.  If his decoder doesn't have CV6 then I guess he wont be able to adjust it 🤣

[TEAMYAKIMA]

On 06/01/2024 at 16:55, Hamburger said:

Simply increase the value of CV5 on the ESU decoder (if not already set to maximum value 255) and/or decrease the value of CV5 on the 2-8-2.

 

On 07/01/2024 at 09:16, Nigelcliffe said:

Which means the solution is one of  - use CV2 and (mostly) CV5 and hope to hit something

Again, many thanks to one and all who took the trouble to share their knowledge to help me. I discovered that the 0-6-0T 's CV5 was set at 160. I set up the 2-8-2 and the 0-6-0T on parallel tracks and experimented. After several 'suck it and see' moments I settled at a set speed for all four anti-clockwise locos at 32% and with the 0-6-0T's CV5 set at 245 it speed matched the 2-8-2.

 

Job done and once again apologies for my complete ignorance of DCC and thanks for your help.