BR Warships in South Wales especially around Swansea - how common were they?

[Rail-Online]

Hi,

I have been cleaning up some negatives of Warships in South Wales.  These are mainly on the route from the Severn Tunnel up to Pontypool Road and are heading trains from the S.West to Manchester/Liverpool and would come off at Shrewsbury or Crewe.  It occured to me that although they appeared at Cardiff on some passenger workings I had never seen pics of them west of Cardiff at Swansea.  Were they dagrammed to work passenger trains to Swansea?

 

On a freight front I know they appeared on freight workings mainly coming off at Severn Tunnel, or sometimes Cardiff or Margam but again I cannot recall any photos of them at Landore.

 

Is this correct or is it just my memory!

I assume there was no differences between the Swindon built class and those from North British as far as workings were concerned (except on the Waterloo trains where SR crews were only trained on class 42s) ?

 

Cheers Tony

[The Johnster]

Rare west of Canton, never saw one work a passenger train downline from Cardiff and onl once found one at Margam, obviously off a freight.  IIRC Severn Tunnel men traction-signed them but no further west; certainly nobody at Canton signed them.  Brian Rolley to the topic, please, paging BR2975...  The prototype D6xx Warships were allox Pantyfynnon at the end of their careers, but only worked local trips there and TTBOMK did not operate over the SWML, and when I saw the two being hauled to Woodhams' by a Hymek at Marshfield they were on the down relief; I am not sure these two locomotives were ever more than a paper transfer to Pantyfynnon, and if they were they must have travelled back upline before being withdrawn (Swindon?).

 

In the 60s there was a through Saturday Plymouth-Cardiff service that would regularly feature a D8xx, worked by Bath Road men and getting in about 16.00.  It would run around at Canton Carriage Shed and work the return leg.  There was a similar working from Portsmouth with a Fratton 33.

[Stoke West]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Rare west of Canton, never saw one work a passenger train downline from Cardiff and onl once found one at Margam, obviously off a freight.  IIRC Severn Tunnel men traction-signed them but no further west; certainly nobody at Canton signed them.  Brian Rolley to the topic, please, paging BR2975...  The prototype D6xx Warships were allox Pantyfynnon at the end of their careers, but only worked local trips there and TTBOMK did not operate over the SWML, and when I saw the two being hauled to Woodhams' by a Hymek at Marshfield they were on the down relief; I am not sure these two locomotives were ever more than a paper transfer to Pantyfynnon, and if they were they must have travelled back upline before being withdrawn (Swindon?).

 

In the 60s there was a through Saturday Plymouth-Cardiff service that would regularly feature a D8xx, worked by Bath Road men and getting in about 16.00.  It would run around at Canton Carriage Shed and work the return leg.  There was a similar working from Portsmouth with a Fratton 33.

Warships got to Barry i've seen phots of them working out of the docks on block load trains (not bananas ) , probably been round the Vale on the way to Margam due to incidents on the main line . Caught a train from Patchway morning time warship hauled

[The Johnster]

Tunnel men would have signed Barry and the Vale, and Bath Road would have probaby been sent there with Canton pilots.  As a very rough rule of thumb, distance from depot for goods workings on the main lines seemed to be about 60 miles; several of our main Canton destinations from which we could expect and were sometimes booked back workings were coincidentally 56 miles away from the shed (Llanelli via District, Hereford, Gloucester) and if we worked further afield we would usually be booked home on the cushions.  I don't recall Tunnel or Ebbw men working Llanelli jobs, but Tunnel certainly went down as far as Jersey Marine.  Freightliners ran to passenger timings and we worked them longer distances as a result.  Llanelli took a little longer owing to the lower speeds on the Swansea District line, and we had no booked brake van work further down than Jersey Marine. 

 

My bottom goods guard's link regular brake van job was probably the 'Calvert Bricks', block 50mph vac braked PIPE wagons from Canton Sidings, pick up more traffic at Lawrence Hill, and work via Box to Swindon for relief, and booked home on the cushions, don't even ask for orders.  I have on occasion been sent to Swindon on  the cushions for back working, and worked to Carmarthen Jc, also booked home on the cushions.   My route card was for Salop, Worcester, Didcot via Badminton or Box, Westbury, Highbridge, Carmarthen including Barry/VoG/Danygraig/District/Cockett and Swansea H.S., Pontypridd Goods, and Aber Jc; I was later required to sign the Cardiff Valleys (Barry Island, Penarth, Treherbert, Merthyr, and Rhymney) 'passenger only', which I objected to on principle, but fruitlessly. 

 

I refused point blank to sign for routes, as some of my less concientious colleages did, 'back cab only'; I thought this demeaned both the job and my status in it, and was respected more by drivers because of this.  I'd say the majority, but sadly not all, of the guard's intake of this period shared this view; if we couldn't work a brake van over a route with confidence at night or in poor visibility, or put a hotbox off anywhere along it, we correctly did not consider ourselves competent to work trains over it, and wouldn't sign.  When I learned Llanelli, I was told that I would never be required to work a van over the Swansea District; six weeks later I was asked to take a class 8 transfer freight from Llandeilo Jc to Margam.  At night, in a blizzard, no problem despite the misgivings of the Llanelli locomen.

[Cwmtwrch]

By the summer of 1965 Canton and Landore between them had more than 150 class 37 allocated.

[philip-griffiths]

42 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

By the summer of 1965 Canton and Landore between them had more than 150 class 37 allocated.

Yes but the warship was a type 4 loco. The 37s, type 3. The Warships were designed to replace the Kings and Castles. 37s were designed to replace the workings undertaken by the 56xxs etc. 

[The Johnster]

Some of which were outstationed at Llanelli, Pantyfynnon, Llantrisant and Radyr, but yes.  Margam & Ebbw Jc had a few as well!  The headlight-fitted Landore 37s for the Central Wales were stationed at Pantyfynnon, and the story I was told was that the fitters at Landore were given some of the petty cash and told to buy the lights from a local car parts shop, Lucas rallying spotlights.  They fitted them to the locos and the powertwin 120s at Landore.

 

Had a powertwin 120 on the 23.05 Bristol T.M.-Cardiff one night, and rode in the cab through the Severn Tunnel with the light on; Lucas made a damn fine rallying spotlight!  But being able to see how much water was pouring in while you knew you were beneat a river fifty feet deep at high tide was a bit worrying...

[Halvarras]

9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Rare west of Canton, never saw one work a passenger train downline from Cardiff and onl once found one at Margam, obviously off a freight.  IIRC Severn Tunnel men traction-signed them but no further west; certainly nobody at Canton signed them.  Brian Rolley to the topic, please, paging BR2975...  The prototype D6xx Warships were allox Pantyfynnon at the end of their careers, but only worked local trips there and TTBOMK did not operate over the SWML, and when I saw the two being hauled to Woodhams' by a Hymek at Marshfield they were on the down relief; I am not sure these two locomotives were ever more than a paper transfer to Pantyfynnon, and if they were they must have travelled back upline before being withdrawn (Swindon?).

 

 

D601/2/4 went to South Wales August-November 1967, D600/3 remained at Laira on their usual mainly Cornish workings (including 1V33 down 'Cornishman'). The three escapees all returned to Laira and went back into traffic alongside the other two for their final month or so. This explains how 'remainer' D600 and 'leaver' D601 (poor choice of words...?!) ended up together at Woodham's with the other three going to Cashmore's. I think the Hymek you saw may have been D7055 but I'm not sure where to look to confirm that at the moment.....

 

Withdrawn at Laira and still displaying 'that' headcode, here's D601 with clear evidence of its short-lived allocation to 87E Landore:

[br2975]

Warships west of Cardiff, were, at one time a daily event, but as far west as Swansea ?.

.

During early 1971 I used to try and get to see the daily 8F37 12:01 Severn Tunnel Jcn. – Margam as it passed through the site of the former Ely (Main Line) station about 1:00pm, and which was an almost 'solid Warship turn'.

From my notes, some examples were:-

25/02/71 - 864, 865;

26/02/71 - 846;

27/02/71 - 846,

02/03/71 - 837,

03/03/71 - 808;

05/03/71 - 865;

06/03/71 - 809;

10/03/71 - 844;

11/03/71 - 807;

13/03/71 - 857;

15/03/71 - 857;

16/03/71 - 833;

23/03/71 - 859;

05/04/71 – 841

.

They were more commonplace on the SWML west of Cardiff than on the valleys network

.

eg

I only ever saw one at Radyr, on the morning of Wednesday 26th. May, 1971

 

809 'Champion' ( 7C22/8B22 ) ***** (see note below at "A")

together with

154

1613, 1914,

5179+5180,

6603, 6906, 6927, 6930, 6982,

7058,.

.

But I missed another at Radyr, later in 1971 when on

.;

Tuesday 17th. August, 1971.

D854 Tiger, worked
0C22 L/E Bath Rd. Avonmouth
7C22 07.05 Avonmouth - Radyr ( empty coke hoppers )
8B41 10.20 Radyr - Filton C.C.D. **
0F74 L/E Filton - Bath Rd.

.

However, the WTT showed the following

8B41 09:52 Radyr Quarry - Bristol West Depot / Filton or Wapping Wharf, (household coal) as required.

8B22 10:20 Radyr Quarry - Avonmouth. ( coke hoppers )

So it appears 8B41 ran in the path of 8B22 on this date ?

.

NOTE "A"

On Thursday 27th. May, 1971, the day after I saw D809 at Radyr, D809 worked an extended 7C36 05:10 Acton-East Usk which would/should have been be empty household coal wagons to East Usk Yard. However, D809 continued west, its' train  included a raft of Ford Palvans, undoubtedly from Dagenham bound for Danygraig, Swansea, and no doubt added at Acton, or Stoke Gifford where 7C36 stood for an hour for wagon examination. Stranger still is that following 7C36 down the GWML / SWML would be  7C37 06:30 Southall - Jersey Marine which would sensibly have taken these wagons forward from STJ where both trains had stopped. Sadly, 50yrs on I doubt we'll find out why 7C36 continued past East Usk.

.

D810 'Cockade' worked 8C37 11.35 STJ-Margam as late as the 1st December 72, the day before it worked it's last train. 

.

Warships were common at Barry as well; where   6E69 / 8E69 Barry Docks - Temple Mills freight, but often mainly banana vans, was also an almost 'solid' Warship working for a number of years.

.

Passenger wise, I only recall Warships working as far as Cardiff, and in later years the most common was;

 1C36 08.45 Kingswear - Cardiff and 1B04 13.10 Cardiff - Paignton and that was a 'summer dated' working.

 

I am aware of Warships reaching Ebbw Vale on several occasions, crewed by Severn Tunnel men,

D826 'Jupiter' has been captured on film passing Rogerstone circa 1968, and in 1968 another reached British Benzole, Trethomas on a trainload of fitted 21 tonners..

.

As for Warships at Swansea, I am aware of them working STJ - Jersey Marine jobs, and may have details somewhere, but it would take some finding.

I have seen a photo of D836 'Powerful' waiting for the road at Newport on 13 April 1971 with 7V04 the 10.22 Eastleigh - Jersey Marine coal empties, and also 

 on Wednesday 18th. August, 1971

D858 'Valorous' worked;

7C26 08.45 Plymouth Friary - Severn Tunnel Jct.

0O67 21.50 Severn Tunnel Jct. - Jersey Marine.

I don't know what it worked back from Jersey Marine.

.

As for the original D6xx series...............

.

The photo attached is taken at Pantyffynnon, and quite rare .

D601,D602 & D604 were transferred from Laira to Landore 8/1967.

D602 made the move on 04/08/1967.

D601 moved on 21/08/1967, worked to Newport by a Western hauling a South west - North West passenger service, and D604 made the move on 18/09/1967.

It was reported that they reached Llandrindod Wells on at least two occasions.

All returned to Laira in 11/1967.

D601 & D602 left Landore for Laira on 22/11/1967 and were together at Bristol Bath Road on 24/11/1967.

All were withdrawn 31/12/1967.

D602 was painted in blue with a small yellow warning panel, whereas D601 & D604 were in green with a small yellow warning panel.

The loco nearest the camera in this shot doesn't appear to have a light stripe along the tumblehome and has a BR arrow symbol amidships so is most likely D602.

So, this photo was taken sometime between 19/09/1967 and 22/11/1967.

The W.R. had recently lost a number of Cl.37s to the NER and ScR and it was thought (mistakenly) that the Warships would make a suitable replacement.

(RCTS Courtney Haydon collection)

.

For the sake of completeness;

 

On Thursday, 22nd. July, 1968, Hymek Cl.35 D7055 passed Cardiff General with withdrawn Warships D600 'Active' & D601 'Ark Royal' in tow, bound for Woodham Bros. scrap yard, Barry Docks

.

Although this reply wanders a bit off the subject, I hope it helps ?

.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by br2975

[Fat Controller]

From 1955 to 1973, my bedroom was  about 1/4 mile from the L&MMR at Stradey, with a clear view of the line. 

The usual fare were EE Type 3, almost invariably from the Central Wales pool. However, one Sunday afternoon (when there was seldom any traffic) I heard a diesel passing Furnace School.  Looking out of the window, I was surprised to see the weedkiller train, hauled by what looked like an 800 series Warship. I've never read any report of such a sighting, and wonder if my eyes deceived me.

[Rail-Online]

Thanks Guys - very interesting. I would have thought Canton drivers would have signed for Warships but clearly not.  The few pics I have of Warships in Wales I have just added to the www.rail-online.co.uk web site.  Clearly in 1966 there was a SO Bournemouth (with SR stock) around mid day (the quoted times vary!) that a Warship worked.  The light engine at Rumney Bridge heading East is interesting.

 

Cheers Tony

[Rugd1022]

On 18/12/2023 at 09:32, br2975 said:

Warships west of Cardiff, were, at one time a daily event, but as far west as Swansea ?.

.

During early 1971 I used to try and get to see the daily 8F37 12:01 Severn Tunnel Jcn. – Margam as it passed through the site of the former Ely (Main Line) station about 1:00pm, and which was an almost 'solid Warship turn'.

From my notes, some examples were:-

25/02/71 - 864, 865;

26/02/71 - 846;

27/02/71 - 846,

02/03/71 - 837,

03/03/71 - 808;

05/03/71 - 865;

06/03/71 - 809;

10/03/71 - 844;

11/03/71 - 807;

13/03/71 - 857;

15/03/71 - 857;

16/03/71 - 833;

23/03/71 - 859;

05/04/71 – 841

.

They were more commonplace on the SWML west of Cardiff than on the valleys network

.

eg

I only ever saw one at Radyr, on the morning of Wednesday 26th. May, 1971

 

809 'Champion' ( 7C22/8B22 ) ***** (see note below at "A")

together with

154

1613, 1914,

5179+5180,

6603, 6906, 6927, 6930, 6982,

7058,.

.

But I missed another at Radyr, later in 1971 when on

.;

Tuesday 17th. August, 1971.

D854 Tiger, worked
0C22 L/E Bath Rd. Avonmouth
7C22 07.05 Avonmouth - Radyr ( empty coke hoppers )
8B41 10.20 Radyr - Filton C.C.D. **
0F74 L/E Filton - Bath Rd.

.

However, the WTT showed the following

8B41 09:52 Radyr Quarry - Bristol West Depot / Filton or Wapping Wharf, (household coal) as required.

8B22 10:20 Radyr Quarry - Avonmouth. ( coke hoppers )

So it appears 8B41 ran in the path of 8B22 on this date ?

.

NOTE "A"

On Thursday 27th. May, 1971, the day after I saw D809 at Radyr, D809 worked an extended 7C36 05:10 Acton-East Usk which would/should have been be empty household coal wagons to East Usk Yard. However, D809 continued west, its' train  included a raft of Ford Palvans, undoubtedly from Dagenham bound for Danygraig, Swansea, and no doubt added at Acton, or Stoke Gifford where 7C36 stood for an hour for wagon examination. Stranger still is that following 7C36 down the GWML / SWML would be  7C37 06:30 Southall - Jersey Marine which would sensibly have taken these wagons forward from STJ where both trains had stopped. Sadly, 50yrs on I doubt we'll find out why 7C36 continued past East Usk.

.

D810 'Cockade' worked 8C37 11.35 STJ-Margam as late as the 1st December 72, the day before it worked it's last train. 

.

Warships were common at Barry as well; where   6E69 / 8E69 Barry Docks - Temple Mills freight, but often mainly banana vans, was also an almost 'solid' Warship working for a number of years.

.

Passenger wise, I only recall Warships working as far as Cardiff, and in later years the most common was;

 1C36 08.45 Kingswear - Cardiff and 1B04 13.10 Cardiff - Paignton and that was a 'summer dated' working.

 

I am aware of Warships reaching Ebbw Vale on several occasions, crewed by Severn Tunnel men,

D826 'Jupiter' has been captured on film passing Rogerstone circa 1968, and in 1968 another reached British Benzole, Trethomas on a trainload of fitted 21 tonners..

.

As for Warships at Swansea, I am aware of them working STJ - Jersey Marine jobs, and may have details somewhere, but it would take some finding.

I have seen a photo of D836 'Powerful' waiting for the road at Newport on 13 April 1971 with 7V04 the 10.22 Eastleigh - Jersey Marine coal empties, and also 

 on Wednesday 18th. August, 1971

D858 'Valorous' worked;

7C26 08.45 Plymouth Friary - Severn Tunnel Jct.

0O67 21.50 Severn Tunnel Jct. - Jersey Marine.

I don't know what it worked back from Jersey Marine.

.

As for the original D6xx series...............

.

The photo attached is taken at Pantyffynnon, and quite rare .

D601,D602 & D604 were transferred from Laira to Landore 8/1967.

D602 made the move on 04/08/1967.

D601 moved on 21/08/1967, worked to Newport by a Western hauling a South west - North West passenger service, and D604 made the move on 18/09/1967.

It was reported that they reached Llandrindod Wells on at least two occasions.

All returned to Laira in 11/1967.

D601 & D602 left Landore for Laira on 22/11/1967 and were together at Bristol Bath Road on 24/11/1967.

All were withdrawn 31/12/1967.

D602 was painted in blue with a small yellow warning panel, whereas D601 & D604 were in green with a small yellow warning panel.

The loco nearest the camera in this shot doesn't appear to have a light stripe along the tumblehome and has a BR arrow symbol amidships so is most likely D602.

So, this photo was taken sometime between 19/09/1967 and 22/11/1967.

The W.R. had recently lost a number of Cl.37s to the NER and ScR and it was thought (mistakenly) that the Warships would make a suitable replacement.

(RCTS Courtney Haydon collection)

.

For the sake of completeness;

 

On Thursday, 22nd. July, 1968, Hymek Cl.35 D7055 passed Cardiff General with withdrawn Warships D600 'Active' & D601 'Ark Royal' in tow, bound for Woodham Bros. scrap yard, Barry Docks

.

Although this reply wanders a bit off the subject, I hope it helps ?

.

 

 

Hugh Dady's colour album 'Heyday Of The Warships' has a cracking photo of D602 in BSYP livery taken by Roy Palmer at Llandrindod Well in September '67 with a freight from Landeilo Yard, which according to the caption it worked just twice. (On the same page is a Terry Nicholls shot of D602 working 1A77 12.00 Penzance - Padd past St.Budeaux on 28th December, two days before being withdrawn).

[Hal Nail]

Rail Online newsletter this month mentions adding some new photos of Warships in South Wales and this comment:

 

"I did not know that Canton, Margam and Landore drivers were not trained on these machines until I did some research which rather explains their scarcity in South Wales (except briefly on Bristol to Shrewsbury trains which were manned by Bath Road drivers).

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p265322570/ece74d509

 

edit: I hadn't noticed this is a rail online thread when I posted that!

Edited January 1 by Hal Nail

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Rail Online newsletter this month mentions adding some new photos of Warships in South Wales and this comment:

 

"I did not know that Canton, Margam and Landore drivers were not trained on these machines until I did some research which rather explains their scarcity in South Wales (except briefly on Bristol to Shrewsbury trains which were manned by Bath Road drivers).

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p265322570/ece74d509

Were they all manned by Bath Road Drivers I wonder?   The first use of 'Warships' on the North & West - as far as I'm aware - was as replacements for 'Castles' on the Newton Abbot - Salop double home jobs which were worked throughout by either Newton or Salop Drivers.  What I don't know is to what extent theh diesels replaced 'Castles' on the Salop worked turns and to what extent Salop men learnt them.

 

One feature of WR dieselisation was the abolition of double home working which led to what had been intermediate (on line of route) depots getting a share of work they'd never had much involvement with previously.  What I don't know is the extent to which this happened on the North & West before the West of England - North West  trains were taken off the route.    

 

At one time some trains in any case started from or teminated at Bristol  so presumably involved Bath Road nmen although it's not clear how far north they went.  that depends to on the extent to which other depots on the route learnt the Warships' so yt wuld be interesting ti hear further detail about that.

[Ian Hargrave]

17 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Were they all manned by Bath Road Drivers I wonder?   The first use of 'Warships' on the North & West - as far as I'm aware - was as replacements for 'Castles' on the Newton Abbot - Salop double home jobs which were worked throughout by either Newton or Salop Drivers.  What I don't know is to what extent theh diesels replaced 'Castles' on the Salop worked turns and to what extent Salop men learnt them.

 

One feature of WR dieselisation was the abolition of double home working which led to what had been intermediate (on line of route) depots getting a share of work they'd never had much involvement with previously.  What I don't know is the extent to which this happened on the North & West before the West of England - North West  trains were taken off the route.    

 

At one time some trains in any case started from or teminated at Bristol  so presumably involved Bath Road nmen although it's not clear how far north they went.  that depends to on the extent to which other depots on the route learnt the Warships' so yt wuld be interesting ti hear further detail about that.

The Warships on the North to West worked through to Crewe,as opposed to Shrewsbury. A Newport stop was introduced c1965 the loco running round its train at the platform. 

[Rail-Online]

I was chatting to a well known Shrewsbury spotter the other day and he informed me he saw every one of the class at Shrewsbury back 'in the day'.  He also confirmed that when they first started working to there engines were changed for LMR ones at Shrewsbury station, only later on did they continue through to Crewe.  He also said he cannot ever recall seeing one on Coleham shed confirming my thoughts that all diagrams were out and back.

 

Cheers Tony

[Ian Hargrave]

19 minutes ago, Rail-Online said:

I was chatting to a well known Shrewsbury spotter the other day and he informed me he saw every one of the class at Shrewsbury back 'in the day'.  He also confirmed that when they first started working to there engines were changed for LMR ones at Shrewsbury station, only later on did they continue through to Crewe.  He also said he cannot ever recall seeing one on Coleham shed confirming my thoughts that all diagrams were out and back.

 

Cheers Tony

From my own personal observation,Idid see one work into Crewe in June 1965 and that on an out & home working.Canton D1500’s ( aka Class 47 ) had by that date also taken regular turns to Crewe on N&W trains.

[Phil Bullock]

A few observations..

 

Prior to the Newport stop the SW -  NW Warship hauled trains ran via Maindee East and North Junctions … crew change at Pontypool Road or Hereford perhaps?
 

D855 was at Crewe when I visited in 1969 and D862 made it to Crewe in 1971 on the NA - NLW motorail but via Brum I think.

 

The NBLs seemed to wander further than the Swindon built locos appearing in the West Midlands, on Padd - BNS trains and also on Cotswold line trains to Worcester and Hereford in addition to West of England duties whereas the Swindon built locos wandered rather less probably due to their commitment to Waterloo - Exeter jobs until October 71. There’s also the rumour of the LM not liking the Swindon locos under their OHLE due to the exhausts being on the centre of the body line rather than offset as on the NBLs. 
 

It’s amazing how much. Interest these locos still generate….

 

 

[br2975]

Possibly the first occasion a diesel loco-hauled passenger service entered South Wales was a brand new D800 ‘Sir Brian Robertson’  at Cardiff on Saturday 26 July 1958 with the ‘South Wales Pullman’.

.

This was a VIP special from Paddington to Cardiff on as part of a programme by BR to promote the introduction of the D800 class ‘Warships’ on the Western Region.

 

A white headboard read: "First 2200hp Diesel Hydraulic Locomotive - Built at British Railways Workshops - Swindon Works 1958".