LNWR wagon sheets

[magmouse]

I am working on artwork for LNWR wagon sheets, in the 1900-1910 period. I haven't yet found a clear photo showing the whole of the writing on the sheets, so I am working from glimpses here and there. The best one is here:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1503.htm

 

There has been some discussion of the topic previously, notably here:

 

 

(though this discussion is limited in usefulness by the loss of the images), and here:

 

 

So my question is, does anyone have anything to add to what has already been discussed? My artwork in draft form is below, and it would be great to have any further information, especially regarding the general layout, and the letter and number forms - some of the digits are my own interpretation, based on the overall style, as I don't have pictures showing all the digits.

 

 

 

Once I have this as good as it is going to get, I will of course be happy to share the artwork.

 

Nick.

 

[Compound2632]

See also my more recent attempt here, largely using the same source material as you:

 

 

But I'll have to sit and think what my evidence for the longitudinal red stripe not being the full length of the sheet was. I do think, however, that it was normal practice for the sheet number at least, and probably the company initials, to be repeated above the short ends of the sheet.

 

Your modified Big Caslon looks a lot better than my quick attempt with Times New Roman.

 

Note that my starting-point was that the sheet would have been made from five 21 ft x 3 ft lengths of cloth; I aligned the letters L&NW on the first seam and made the red stripe cover just the middle three strips, with the longitudinal stripe to the same proportion, i.e. 3/5 the full length. 

 

Another useful reference is this, dated 1903: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwra3633.htm. This does show the L&NW lettering taking up pretty well the full length of the sheet.

 

A test is, if you fold up your sheet in the approved manner, is it evident what company it belongs to?

[magmouse]

Thanks, Stephen.

 

Regarding full length stripe vs end numbering, in the, er, red corner we have:

 

Excerpt from https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1503.htm

 

This shows the strip going to the end, although there does seem to be a gap in it - was there text there that ids now invisible due to dirt and wear? Or do we just not see the red stripe in this section for some reason?

 

Similarly in the photo you linked to, there is no sign of lettering on the end of the sheet, while the other lettering is reasonably clear.

 

In the blue corner, we have this drawing:

 

From http://igg.org.uk/rail/9-loads/9-tarps.htm

 

Which is similar to (derived from?) the drawing in Cross and Essery's article in HMRS Journal volume 16 no 6, p.204-209.

 

So far, I have seen no photographic evidence for numbers on the end, or indeed dates on the side as shown in these drawings. My artwork is therefore based on what I can see in photos that are roughly in the period I am interested in, limited as that is.

 

Regarding the size of the sheet, I note Mike @airnimal's statement that LNWR sheets were 19' 6" X 15' 5" before 1910: 

though he doesn't say where this info is from. Cross and Essery don't give dimensions for LNWR sheets, but their drawing suggests they were shorter and wider than the later standard of 21' x 14'4". I am currently building a D84 5-plank open, and in a little bit of experimental archeology, I have found the 19'6" sheet to be inconveniently short for an 18' OH wagon - no wonder the sheet size changed after 1910 as these wagons became increasingly common.

 

Spacing and positioning of the lettering is based on photos, following your lead in @Penlan's thread, linked to in my first post. It is curious, but clearly the case, that the space between the left edge and the L is larger than that between the right edge and the W.

 

I haven't yet done the 'fold up' test, though I suspect my design will fail....

 

Nick.

[magmouse]

I have just tried folding the sheet with my current artwork. The result is the small, upside-down number appears on the outside - it really needs to be just a little closer to the edge of the sheet to do that. I used the folding method described here:

 

 

It is the 1936 LMS method, but it seems a reasonable approach and was likely based on practices going back to the first uses of sheets. With the described method, any writing on the ends of the sheets would be hidden - what is on the outside of the sheet when folded is the middle section of one long edge. Alternatively, you get the back/underside of the centre strip. Of course, we have no idea what might have been on the back of the sheets - certainly the GWR sheets around this time had the sheet number on the back near the long edge, so if the sheet was folded up to reduce the overhang when on a low-sided wagon, the number would be visible.

 

Nick.

[Compound2632]

18 hours ago, magmouse said:

Regarding full length stripe vs end numbering, in the, er, red corner we have:

 

Excerpt from https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrcs1503.htm

 

This shows the strip going to the end

 

Hum, yes.

 

I think the trick will be to arrange the sheet on the wagon in such a way that the bits one is doubtful of aren't visible. That shouldn't be too much of a problem as the bits one is doubtful of are the bits one can't see in photographs of sheets on wagons...

 

Circular ignorance.

[magmouse]

I’m not sure if my response to that is Like, Agree, Funny or (circle of) Applause, so take this as a bit of each…

 

If we only modelled what we can see in photos, us pre-grouping types would have to build monochrome layouts.

 

Nick

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, magmouse said:

If we only modelled what we can see in photos, us pre-grouping types would have to build monochrome layouts.

 

You knew what I meant.

 

Anyway, as you know, I like my GW red wagons as they provide a contrast to the monochrome Midland and LNW ones!

[Brassey]

The L&NWR instructional booklet "The Handling of Goods" June 1911, by the aptly named Chief Good Manager C E Greaseman, does not describe how to sheet but does offer some insight:

 

"Care must be taken that the sheets are sound and that they cover the whole of the load and are securely fastened down.  If one sheet is not enough use two, and see that the overlap is to the rear of the train."

 

And elsewhere:

 

"Empties liable to catch fire must always be sheeted." - in this instance I think "empties refers to empty casks, churns; things that might have contained paint etc.

 

Knowing the L&NWR, they probably produced a handout on how to attach sheets which may be in the L&NWR Society archives.

 

 

[wessy]

"Regarding the size of the sheet, I note Mike @airnimal's statement that LNWR sheets were 19' 6" X 15' 5" before 1910: though he doesn't say where this info is from. Cross and Essery don't give dimensions for LNWR sheets, but their drawing suggests they were shorter and wider than the later standard of 21' x 14'4". "

I think that these dimensions were quoted in 'LNWR liveries' by Talbot, Dow, Millard and Davies (HMRS 1985). They continue by stating that the later sheets were 21'6" by 14'5" to suit the larger high-sided wagons then in widespread use.

[magmouse]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have finalised the artwork, at least for the time being, until further information comes to light. It is available here for anyone who wants to use it:

 

 

Nick.