Buyers Beware?

[Kennel]

Dear colleagues,

 

Can anyone share experience with being treated badly by a loco builder?

I do not possess the confidence to build a metal loco kit, so in 2021 I embarked on the process to find someone to build me one from an available kit. The first supplier could never offer me availability of their product, so I focussed on the second. I then sought a builder, only for the first to retire before commencing my job before a settled on a second. The kit suppliers both have examples on this site, and the builder advertisers in the small suppliers forum.

Deposits were paid, kit secured and after some delay the build commenced in September 2022, with progress shots displayed on the builder's website. The entire process has now stalled, with the builder claiming the kit is poor and was incomplete when supplied. The last mail "I'll mail you in a couple of weeks" was in October. I have requested that we settle up and that I receive the build 'as is'. I know I am not dealing with a large company.

I refrain from mentioning any names at this stage, but would be interested in hearing from any other Member who has had a similar experience and how they responded.

 

Late Happy New Year to all

[Hal Nail]

I don't have any direct experience but there are threads on here from pro kit builders and poor kits seem to be a mere inconvenience to a decent builder. Obviously if it requires near total reworking that would be different but then you'd think they'd contact you promptly to discuss 

 

I also get the impession that wait times are down to working through the queue rather than construction itself - the good ones build them in a matter of days, not weeks or months.

Edited January 10 by Hal Nail

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Kennel said:

Dear colleagues,

 

Can anyone share experience with being treated badly by a loco builder?

I do not possess the confidence to build a metal loco kit, so in 2021 I embarked on the process to find someone to build me one from an available kit. The first supplier could never offer me availability of their product, so I focussed on the second. I then sought a builder, only for the first to retire before commencing my job before a settled on a second. The kit suppliers both have examples on this site, and the builder advertisers in the small suppliers forum.

Deposits were paid, kit secured and after some delay the build commenced in September 2022, with progress shots displayed on the builder's website. The entire process has now stalled, with the builder claiming the kit is poor and was incomplete when supplied. The last mail "I'll mail you in a couple of weeks" was in October. I have requested that we settle up and that I receive the build 'as is'. I know I am not dealing with a large company.

I refrain from mentioning any names at this stage, but would be interested in hearing from any other Member who has had a similar experience and how they responded.

 

Late Happy New Year to all

 

Always, always employ someone for whom you can get recommendations from previous clients, and see examples of their work.

 

This does not just apply to model railway kit builders, but to anyone offering a paid service.

 

CJI.

[Hal Nail]

20 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Always, always employ someone for whom you can get recommendations

I fear it is too late for that.

 

But as a longstanding forum dweller, I can vouch for your wisdom!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, Kennel said:

...similar experience and how they responded.

Hard ball time: failure to deliver both to the appropriate standard and  on time at agreed price a working job; return my goods, there will be no payment, sue me, please do. Threat of the broadest possible naming and shaming unless there is swift compliance, like tomorrow. You are the person out of pocket.

 

 

[Kennel]

Thanks all,

 

I certainly was under the impression that discussions and looking at work on this individual's website, with a listing on this site, did represent me doing 'due diligence' on my part before proceeding. Hence the title of my posting. I hope that this is just me being unlucky 

[BlackFivesMatter]

There are two manufacturers of kits  (one of which has I believe bought the kits or etched from an earlier manufacturer) whose kits are either enlargements of 4mm kits or are scratch building aids. I'm not saying they are bad kits or bad companies simply that they have their challenges. Some kit builders will say they will not touch them as they require a lot of fettling. 

Often we are told to "Be nice" with small operatives in the hobby sector. They are one person businesses, they are often a sideline etc. I'd agree in most instances, but failure to produce with no communication is not justifiable. An email/phone call/letter does not take any time. Even medical reasons can be brief "Joe Stiggins unwell - I'll be in touch an a month or so". Not difficult. 

A good builder will have a backlog and you may have to wait, but worth it in the end. 

Have you looked at the Gauge O guild website for kit builders? 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

57 minutes ago, BlackFivesMatter said:

I'd agree in most instances, but failure to produce with no communication is not justifiable.

With you all the way, and then there is the particular 'red light' I saw in what the kit builder is reported as communicating: 'kit incomplete'.

 

That's simply unacceptable, after significant construction of the kit has been shown, and at an interval that could be anything up to a year after construction commenced. The time to get an incomplete kit sorted is following the parts assembly check before construction begins.

[Kennel]

Latest in my soap opera, for your entertainment. This from the 'builder' after I did not respond in one day, following my suggestion that they should deal with my solicitor now:   

 

"In Light of no further response from you. This kit will be packaged up as incomplete and posted back to you.  No further payments necessary and as a small business this will be written off."

 

There's no sense of anything wrong with the way business has been conducted. That message was 12th January - no kit yet

[Kennel]

Dear all,

 

as a sign-off to this affair, I have now received the part-built kit back from the builder: the chimney is on upside down, and it has the wrong size tender wheels. Luckily, have made contact with the original designer of the kit, who also builds. He is going to rebuild/ complete it for me.

A harsh lesson learnt. 

[Talltim]

I’m curious, I assume it’s standard design steam loco with a round boiler, rather than something strange like a Sentinal or a tram engine? If so  I’m not sure how you get the chimney upside down!

[JeffP]

On 06/03/2024 at 15:20, Talltim said:

I’m curious, I assume it’s standard design steam loco with a round boiler, rather than something strange like a Sentinal or a tram engine? If so  I’m not sure how you get the chimney upside down!

Unless it's been done deliberately?

[hayfield]

On 10/01/2024 at 12:33, Kennel said:

Dear colleagues,

 

The kit suppliers both have examples on this site, and the builder advertisers in the small suppliers forum.

Deposits were paid, kit secured and after some delay the build commenced in September 2022, with progress shots displayed on the builder's website. The entire process has now stalled, with the builder claiming the kit is poor and was incomplete when supplied. The last mail "I'll mail you in a couple of weeks" was in October. I have requested that we settle up and that I receive the build 'as is'. I know I am not dealing with a large company.

I refrain from mentioning any names at this stage, but would be interested in hearing from any other Member who has had a similar experience and how they responded.

 

Late Happy New Year to all

 

You have clearly entered into a contract with this person and paid money for it to happen. If the kit was incomplete, unless it was a s/h purchase request the missing parts from the manufacturer. Long before the last message the builder should have reported both parts were missing and secondly the kit was beyond their ability

 

I would have requested the return of both the goods and your money in full

 

On 11/01/2024 at 14:25, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

With you all the way, and then there is the particular 'red light' I saw in what the kit builder is reported as communicating: 'kit incomplete'.

 

That's simply unacceptable, after significant construction of the kit has been shown, and at an interval that could be anything up to a year after construction commenced. The time to get an incomplete kit sorted is following the parts assembly check before construction begins.

 Agree

 

On 06/03/2024 at 15:07, Kennel said:

Dear all,

 

as a sign-off to this affair, I have now received the part-built kit back from the builder: the chimney is on upside down, and it has the wrong size tender wheels. Luckily, have made contact with the original designer of the kit, who also builds. He is going to rebuild/ complete it for me.

A harsh lesson learnt. 

 

At least I would have requested my deposit back, but also recompense for lost/wrong parts and extra costs for partial rebuilding

 

Really long ago in my opinion the item should have been returned long ago along with your deposit. 

 

I know there are two sides to a story, but at least the builder has been guilty on not communication all the issues much sooner compounding your problems

[GrumpyPenguin]

Much as I feel that companies/individuals should be taken to task there comes a time when life (or what we have left) is too short to pursue. Warn others yes, but move on ?

 

As an example I had a heating "engineer" install three radiators in my workshop/hobby room. I specified exactly where I wanted them & what height. The pipework between the room and the boiler was  already in place - 16/20 hours work.

He put the radiators where he though they should go (without asking), one he moved begrugingly and he destroyed one of the drain cocks with grips. Entering the forth day I stopped him and paid him off (far more than he deserved) to get rid.

He left me with a couple of leaks, a pump fitted the wrong way round, a bathroom radiator that has never worked since and worst of all, he left the boiler overheat sensor and the thermostat sensors off !

 

Sorry to ramble on.

[Andymsa]

4 hours ago, chiefpenguin said:

Much as I feel that companies/individuals should be taken to task there comes a time when life (or what we have left) is too short to pursue. Warn others yes, but move on ?

 

As an example I had a heating "engineer" install three radiators in my workshop/hobby room. I specified exactly where I wanted them & what height. The pipework between the room and the boiler was  already in place - 16/20 hours work.

He put the radiators where he though they should go (without asking), one he moved begrugingly and he destroyed one of the drain cocks with grips. Entering the forth day I stopped him and paid him off (far more than he deserved) to get rid.

He left me with a couple of leaks, a pump fitted the wrong way round, a bathroom radiator that has never worked since and worst of all, he left the boiler overheat sensor and the thermostat sensors off !

 

Sorry to ramble on.

You were more generous than I would have been, I certainly wouldn’t have paid him anything.

[Kennel]

Hi Hayfield,

 

yes, I think you're right. However I felt so relieved to get the kit back at all, the appetite for further engagement was just not there. I do though have no hesitation in identifying the 'trader' as thelocoworks.co.uk - not to be confused with Locoworks, who are splendid and have been in business for years.

Stay well clear

[GrumpyPenguin]

On 09/03/2024 at 14:37, Andymsa said:

You were more generous than I would have been, I certainly wouldn’t have paid him anything.

Part of me wanted to say "see you in court", another part simply wanted to see the back of him without further ado - the second thought won.

[hayfield]

I seem to remember as a child anyone who had employed a poor craftsman or brought a dodgy item said they had a bit of bad luck and got on with life, Now we have a mentality of sue for anything we don't like. 7 years ago we had an extension built, after 2 or 3 months we had to part company with the first builder. If we lost money it was in the low £100's not £1000's. As it was a question of the builders cash flow a clean brake was the cheapest solution

 

Now if said builder failed to honor the contract through no fault of yours, in my opinion out of sheer good will certainly a partial refund if not a full refund should be fourth coming. The one contentious issue is the kit being incomplete  !! was  that true and were you asked to supply the missing parts ?

 

If you only have paid a deposit and the builder supplied parts was what its cost wort it, secondly how much is it costing to rectify incorrect work ?

 

I do agree with chiefpenguin, sometimes its far easier just to put it down to experience if you are not out of pocket by much. Good will does go a long way

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It's all heavily circumstantial.

 

I have had the experience of someone with a fine proven reputation, who had lost his previous capability without being fully aware of this, and here sympathy is in order. And at the other end of the scale, someone who flat out lied, claiming another's work as his own as the basis of the contract, and the job swiftly went off the rails. That went to trading standards.

 

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

...a clean break was the cheapest solution...

And if it can be achieved, you are so right, it's best for everyone.

[Kennel]

thanks all, for taking the trouble to respond. 

[DCB]

I am just glad I'm too mean to have anyone build a loco for me, I did however have a major battle with some loco kits my father in law had built by a professional model maker.    There was a mis communication and an ability to pull trains was not   emphasised enough and as a result the locos were really display cabinet items and when used as motive power they could not pull respectable trains and even on light duties they rapidly failed.  The 47XX was not too bad, with a solid brass chassis and MW005 motor .   but a 90XX and a K's  28XX body for which he had a comet chassis built with DS10 and DS11 motors were hopeless and I spent ages trying to fix them burning several motors out before sticking the 28XX chassis on eBay . Very frustrating.  Anyone want an OO  BR Black Cotswold 47XX?  Its on eBay.  Might go lined green if I get bored over Easter.