National Trust - Penrhyn Castle

[009 micro modeller]

7 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

I don't think it's that much of an oversimplification. Herewith the saloon of that property, which is Grade 1 listed and one of the best surviving Restoration houses in England. That's before we get to the massive DANCE LIKE IT'S 1699 neon sign, or the speech bubbles stuck to all the paintings.

Should they just make no effort to engage with families and other audiences then?

 

7 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

The posthumous outing case relates to the donor of Felbrigg Hall, Robert Wyndham Ketton-Cremer, whom the Trust decided was gay because he never married. This notwithstanding protests by his surviving relatives and despite the fact that he was friends with both James Lees-Milne and Rupert Hart-Davis, two dreadful old gossips who never kept quiet about the sexualities of people they knew and yet never said a word about Ketton-Cramer. 

Who is actually making these decisions? Unless they’re being made centrally I’m not sure how much we can infer about the overall direction of the Trust. Or the relevance to Penrhyn Castle’s railway collection.

[009 micro modeller]

13 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

No word as yet about Beckton No.1, but as one of the collection is said to be moving to Kent and none of the current announcements are anywhere near Kent it's fair to assume that the well tank will be heading south. Chatham seems an obvious choice, but that's just a guess. I can't imagine the KESR or Spa Valley having any use for it and I doubt whether the East Kent has the resources to look after it.

Now suggested here as going to Bo’ness (it is built in Scotland, although perhaps not the most reliable source, and I think there might be another loco that could potentially be described/identified as ‘Beckton No. 1’ so there may be some confusion). I agree that Chatham, or static display somewhere in London, would be a more obvious choice.
 

Interestingly one of the posts on the linked thread also comments on the apparently odd choice of new home for Kettering Furnaces No. 3. I’m not overly concerned by the point about the Waterford line being a non-UK organisation (especially as it’s in Ireland, which I assume might be slightly different from elsewhere in Europe given the potential need for cross-border working in the heritage sector and the existence of heritage organisations that cover parts of both the UK and Ireland). The issue for me is that the W&SVR doesn’t appear to have achieved a status that could be regarded as the Irish equivalent of being an Accredited Museum in the UK, which raises some questions about whether a proper deaccession and disposal process has been followed with this particular loco, assuming it was accessioned in the first place. Does anyone happen to know if the contents of National Trust properties (including more obvious things like historic but moveable furniture) are accessioned in the way that more conventional museum collection objects are?

 

There are other examples of ex-East Midlands ironstone locos going to Ireland in preservation, their 3ft gauge making them more at home there than in the UK (where there are hardly any 3ft gauge heritage lines, and were even fewer in the past). The only obvious place I can think of for an operating loco to go is one of the two Southwold Railway sites, as with Scaldwell, another ex-ironstone loco (Crowle Peatland is apparently not allowed to use steam due to the flammable and environmentally sensitive nature of the peatland itself, and anyway steam locos aren’t hugely historically relevant to Lincolnshire peat railways). But that assumes that it needs to go somewhere where it can be operated, which also seems a bit of an odd leap - as a static exhibit, which it currently is, it could go to Irchester (which has static exhibits of various different gauges, but their running line is metre gauge) or to one of the standard gauge ironstone heritage sites. Or indeed to an appropriate non-railway site, including some other National Trust property with links to the ironstone industry.

 

I still very much agree with the overall concept of improving the interpretation of Penrhyn Castle’s history and its links to the slate industry, and the refocusing of the collection around railway items that actually have some link to that history. It’s the lack of detail around what is being done with (some of) the de-accessioned items that bothers me slightly. One way to reverse the previous National Trust decision to concentrate all the locos at Penrhyn Castle might have been to disperse them to other NT properties, but for all we know this could have been looked into and not found to be practical, or useful in communicating the history of those properties to the public. In most cases the new homes suggested so far seem sensible and reasonably relevant, and I notice that in a lot of cases they are places which are capable of operating locos and also placing them on public static display (so for instance the IoWSR has Train Story, East Lancs and Middleton also have good static indoor exhibition spaces of some kind). That gives a lot of flexibility and security to either restore or securely display the locos. The situation with Kettering Furnaces No. 3 seems a bit of an odd one out in this regard. I think it might also be good to hear a little bit more from the Trust about where the locos are moving to and why those sites are a good home for them etc etc. Thinking back to when the NRM transferred the T3 to Swanage, there was a lot of outrage and speculation from some people but generally the official statements put out were actually very good, explaining the rationale behind the decision, how the collections review processes work, why Swanage would be a good home for it and so on.

[papagolfjuliet]

10 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Now suggested here as going to Bo’ness (it is built in Scotland, although perhaps not the most reliable source, and I think there might be another loco that could potentially be described/identified as ‘Beckton No. 1’ so there may be some confusion).

 

There were two systems at Beckton Gasworks serving different parts of the complex, and each system had its own fleet of locos with separate number sequences and different liveries, red ones and green ones. Both the red Beckton No.1 and the green Beckton No.1 survive: the green one is the Penrhyn example and the red one has been in Preston Services' sales catalogue for many years.

 

https://prestonservices.co.uk/item/neilson-tank-locomotive-beckton-no-1/

 

Not all the new custodians plan to overhaul their new acquisitions. Hawarden will remain a static exhibit but is deemed useful because it fills a gap in the Middleton's collection of Hudswell Clarke 0-4-0STs. The railway now has the Victorian Hawarden plus Henry de Lacy II of 1917 and Mirvale of 1955, demonstrating how the company's basic design changed over the years.

 

Incidentally I'm fairly sure that Kettering Furnaces No.3 did not belong to the NT in the first place - certainly not everything at Penrhyn did, and some loco owners whose machines have been in the same place for sixty years might have had to dispose of their property quickly on being evicted from Penrhyn at fairly short notice.

 

The reason for Haydock's transfer to Havenstreet  is that she is very similar to the contractor's loco which built the Freshwater, Yarmouth & Newport Railway and hauled that company's first passenger trains, as seen here: https://www.wcpr.org.uk/Portishead 0-6-0T.html

Edited January 31 by papagolfjuliet

[papagolfjuliet]

14 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Should they just make no effort to engage with families and other audiences then?

 

 

I don't see why these places cannot be allowed to speak for themselves. It's worked for decades; why the sudden need to talk down to visitors?

[Mike Bellamy]

40 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

I don't see why these places cannot be allowed to speak for themselves. It's worked for decades; why the sudden need to talk down to visitors?

 

The Museum of Childhood has been at Sudbury for 'decades' as it was opened in 1974 by Derbyshire County Council - and as many of the visitors are children, they need things they can relate to - the captions on some of the paintings are humorous and tell the story about the person and their part in the history of Sudbury. Having been there recently with a seven year old grandson, he thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it and we stayed all day - unlike the other local attractions at Kedleston Hall and Calke Abbey where he couldn't wait to get out again. At Belton House his favourite part was the adventure playground and of course the train ride - but at least he was out enjoying himself and engaging with others - not sat at home in front of the TV or playing games on his tablet.

.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I don't see why these places cannot be allowed to speak for themselves. It's worked for decades; why the sudden need to talk down to visitors?

Because they cost a fortune to run and there is a finite number of people for whom 'enjoyable day out' consists of paying a not inconsiderable sum to get in to just wander around looking at the paintings and furniture and maybe buying a bit of cake in the tea room. 

 

See numerous other threads about getting families to visit heritage railways to pay the bills so railway enthusiasts can play trains, and how to attract them in the face of multiple other attractions all competing for people's disposable income. 

 

Provided it doesn't damage the fabric of the building it'll either work and help secure the future of the building, or it won't and they'll have to think of something else.  

[009 micro modeller]

10 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

There were two systems at Beckton Gasworks serving different parts of the complex, and each system had its own fleet of locos with separate number sequences and different liveries, red ones and green ones. Both the red Beckton No.1 and the green Beckton No.1 survive: the green one is the Penrhyn example and the red one has been in Preston Services' sales catalogue for many years.

I’d forgotten about that but you’re right - I can’t find the book that mentions it but I think the red locos worked in by-products whereas the green ones were the main gasworks fleet? And I don’t think they had prefixes to indicate which fleet they were in, so the numbers are exactly the same. I knew about the red loco at Preston Services, but there must be relatively few places where it could be useful in preservation (I think Preston have restored it to working order). No idea if it’s this loco or the Penrhyn Castle one (or neither) that’s at Bo’ness as I can’t find the photo supposedly showing it.

 

10 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

Incidentally I'm fairly sure that Kettering Furnaces No.3 did not belong to the NT in the first place - certainly not everything at Penrhyn did, and some loco owners whose machines have been in the same place for sixty years might have had to dispose of their property quickly on being evicted from Penrhyn at fairly short notice.

That would answer my question about de-accession etc, although the NT statement is a bit confusing in that sense as it sort of implies that they have had some input into where all the locos end up, without identifying which ones they actually owned directly (in any case, even if they were donated to the National Trust there may have been an arrangement in place to return the objects to the original donors if no longer needed). It does slightly undermine the idea of the locos as an integral ‘collection’ as well, in some ways. I’m fairly sure that Watkin was not NT-owned, and I’m not sure what negotiations had to take place for its move to Caernarfon, which obviously took place before the current exodus. Off-topic, I found this a bit odd at the time as I’d always assumed that the centrepiece De Winton loco for the new WHR terminus building would be Llanfair, which was already at the WHR, but instead this remains outside at Dinas and Watkin has been brought in. Both are ex-Penmaenmawr 3ft gauge locos so would not have been very plausible candidates for restoration to operational condition in any case.

 

10 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

The reason for Haydock's transfer to Havenstreet  is that she is very similar to the contractor's loco which built the Freshwater, Yarmouth & Newport Railway and hauled that company's first passenger trains, as seen here: https://www.wcpr.org.uk/Portishead 0-6-0T.html

I knew about that one as it’s mentioned in one of the links earlier on. The point with that and Middleton is that both railways have a museum area to display static locos, as do most of the other lines announced as destinations for the Penrhyn Castle locos, whereas the W&SVR doesn’t seem to have anything similar.

[009 micro modeller]

On 31/01/2024 at 08:03, papagolfjuliet said:

 

I don't see why these places cannot be allowed to speak for themselves. It's worked for decades; why the sudden need to talk down to visitors?

Except that there is a lot of both research and visitor feedback that suggests that it hasn’t ‘worked for decades’ for some audiences, especially children and families (which is the audience that The Children’s Country House at Sudbury is targeted towards, and an audience that, broadly speaking, traditionally has not always been made very welcome in country house type settings - it’s hardly ‘talking down’ when it’s for a very young audience, more about presenting information at an appropriate level). Added to which, understanding of child development, different learning styles and so on has improved, and some of that understanding is now being applied to museum education and visitor engagement.

 

On 31/01/2024 at 09:08, Mike Bellamy said:

 

The Museum of Childhood has been at Sudbury for 'decades' as it was opened in 1974 by Derbyshire County Council - and as many of the visitors are children, they need things they can relate to - the captions on some of the paintings are humorous and tell the story about the person and their part in the history of Sudbury. Having been there recently with a seven year old grandson, he thoroughly enjoyed every bit of it and we stayed all day - unlike the other local attractions at Kedleston Hall and Calke Abbey where he couldn't wait to get out again. At Belton House his favourite part was the adventure playground and of course the train ride - but at least he was out enjoying himself and engaging with others - not sat at home in front of the TV or playing games on his tablet.

.

Exactly - explaining things in a relatable way is really important. And for kids especially (but often also for older visitors) a lot of the benefits of visiting a museum or heritage site relate to the sensory experience of being in the space, the opportunity to see real historic objects and to learn about them in a more engaging and creative way than they might be able to elsewhere. I did some training for work (in a museum) recently where it was pointed out that, for example, school groups do not generally visit a museum to find out when the Second World War started (as an example of a very basic piece of historical information). Their teacher can easily tell them that, or they can find it in a textbook. For some primary school children, knowing the year an event took place might not even be particularly meaningful if it’s a very long time ago, but it might be better explained in generational terms (‘when your grandparents/great-grandparents were alive’ or whatever). But (to continue the WW2 example) things like object handling, or going into a replica air raid shelter, are going to be more engaging and interesting, and offer something different from what they would get at school, hopefully deepening their understanding of the topic.

 

(Off-topic, I understand that in addition to the modern miniature railway Belton House also has a bizarre hand-worked railway of around 12” gauge, mounted halfway up the wall in a cellar or similar and once used by the servants to move food. It’s referenced here but annoyingly I can’t find the photos of it that were previously online).

 

On 31/01/2024 at 09:38, Wheatley said:

Because they cost a fortune to run and there is a finite number of people for whom 'enjoyable day out' consists of paying a not inconsiderable sum to get in to just wander around looking at the paintings and furniture and maybe buying a bit of cake in the tea room. 

 

See numerous other threads about getting families to visit heritage railways to pay the bills so railway enthusiasts can play trains, and how to attract them in the face of multiple other attractions all competing for people's disposable income. 

 

Provided it doesn't damage the fabric of the building it'll either work and help secure the future of the building, or it won't and they'll have to think of something else.  

 

Indeed, but when done well it’s not just about income to the heritage site from increased visitor numbers* but also building visiting capacity and confidence in the visitors themselves. Those who are made to feel welcome and who have an engaging and enjoyable time, or who learn something new or interesting etc., are not only more likely to return to that particular museum but also more likely to visit other heritage sites, as they’ll hopefully feel more confident in engaging with them and see visiting a museum as an enjoyable and worthwhile activity that they’ve taken part in previously.
 

*Of course the income from additional visitors is important as well, but for a heritage charity it’s hopefully a means to an end, in the sense that they can reinvest that extra income in aspects of engagement, education, outreach and so on that add value but don’t make money themselves, as well as maintaining the historic building and collections.

Edited February 1 by 009 micro modeller

[009 micro modeller]

Does anyone know if the Ruston diesel is moving, or staying to operate the demonstration line outside with what I think are mostly Penrhyn wagons? Interestingly the non-loco rolling stock collection is quite large and often relevant to Penrhyn, so presumably a lot will still be there. Not sure about the Padarn velocipedes though as I don’t think there were any hugely similar vehicles at Penrhyn whose history they can be used to explain.

[pete_mcfarlane]

There's a lot of models as well, including a rather nice Cambrian 4-4-0 built at Oswestry works by apprentices. Models don't always fare well in modern museums, so hopefully there's a decent plan for these.  

[009 micro modeller]

More information about Kettering Furnaces no. 3 (it is going to Waterford): https://crm.waterfordchamber.ie/news/details/steam-train-to-return-to-waterford

 

It also seems to suggest it was owned by the National Trust (rather than on loan to them), in which case my previous point (about deaccession processes) still stands. On the other hand, the National Preservation thread here asks whether the W&SVR has an Irish equivalent to what would be Accredited Museum status in the UK. But if we’re expecting the National Trust to apply that requirement for deaccession (and they should be applying it, really), have the other locos’ new homes also achieved that status? Middleton, Bo’ness and the IoWSR definitely are Accredited Museums, but I’m unsure about the others.

 

Are any of the locos definitely known to have been on loan to the Trust rather than in their direct ownership?

 

Edit: and Beckton no. 1 (the green one) at Bo’ness: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vxXFt8UEobA

 

Obviously this particular loco spent its working life in London, but I can see the relevance given that it was manufactured in Scotland and similar locos were used in Scottish gasworks.

 

Edited February 2 by 009 micro modeller

[Nearholmer]

On 31/01/2024 at 08:03, papagolfjuliet said:

It's worked for decades; why the sudden need to talk down to visitors?

Except, of course, that it hasn’t worked for decades, in that the “old style” NT way of presenting buildings, which I remember from my own childhood, was distinctly non-engaging, except possibly to a small constituency of people who got a frisson from touching the hem of aristocracy and privilege.
 

Fortunately, the NT moved on from that very old style at least two decades ago, possibly helped a bit by  a particular generation of volunteers, many of whom really did know how to talk down to people, getting a bit too long in the tooth to continue, and being replaced by a new crop. Most of the present round of volunteer interpreters are very approachable, and hugely knowledgeable, and a high proportion are very good at pitching things for children.

 

Making a place interesting to kids, rather than a dull old house that they can’t relate to, is a “door opener” to getting them interested in history  …… if you enjoy going somewhere when you’re ten, you’re likely to go back and see it through adult eyes, picking-up on completely different things, later. You might even want to see it conserved, and interpreted for your own kids.

 

Top question when it comes to conservation of anything ought to be “why conserve it all?”, and in a country that has old steam locomotives, and grand country houses coming out of its ears, as we do, it’s one that needs a good answer. There is a great deal more to history in these islands than railways and cash-splashing on ginormous country houses, two topics which one might argue are vastly over-represented in the “heritage diet”, so the least that should be done is to attempt to give lots of context around each, to broaden the learning.

 

Rant temporarily suspended.

 

Regarding the locos: the NT doesn’t posses the skills to conserve them beyond a basic level, or the knowledge to properly present/interpret them, and is forever trying to stretch the pennies across a multitude of other things. Personally, I think they’re better off cared for by “railway” people, and I particularly think that the IoWSR will make brilliant custodians of a loco that they will cherish far more than the NT ever have.

 

 

 

 

[009 micro modeller]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Except, of course, that it hasn’t worked for decades, in that the “old style” NT way of presenting buildings, which I remember from my own childhood, was distinctly non-engaging, except possibly to a small constituency of people who got a frisson from touching the hem of aristocracy and privilege.
 

Fortunately, the NT moved on from that very old style at least two decades ago, possibly helped a bit by  a particular generation of volunteers, many of whom really did know how to talk down to people, getting a bit too long in the tooth to continue, and being replaced by a new crop. Most of the present round of volunteer interpreters are very approachable, and hugely knowledgeable, and a high proportion are very good at pitching things for children.

 

Making a place interesting to kids, rather than a dull old house that they can’t relate to, is a “door opener” to getting them interested in history  …… if you enjoy going somewhere when you’re ten, you’re likely to go back and see it through adult eyes, picking-up on completely different things, later. You might even want to see it conserved, and interpreted for your own kids.

Exactly - and as I mentioned before, historically a lot of people haven’t been especially well-served by museums (for instance, look at research on museum visitors and educational attainment level). But there are a lot of people working or volunteering in museums nowadays (including me) who would like to change this and to do better. As for children (especially early years and younger children) I think there is a better understanding now of how they learn (including through play, and in other ways that don’t look like ‘learning’ as older kids and adults would understand it), and the object and place-based nature of museums can be quite good for this.

 

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Regarding the locos: the NT doesn’t posses the skills to conserve them beyond a basic level, or the knowledge to properly present/interpret them, and is forever trying to stretch the pennies across a multitude of other things. Personally, I think they’re better off cared for by “railway” people, and I particularly think that the IoWSR will make brilliant custodians of a loco that they will cherish far more than the NT ever have.

I agree - although at least they’ve been kept in a fairly controlled, indoor environment (I was going to say ‘stable environment’ but then realised) at Penrhyn Castle. The problem with interpreting them there is that they’re not really related to the context of the site. Obviously this doesn’t apply to Charles and the other Penrhyn stock, which is staying and which in a way will probably be interpreted better as part of the Castle’s story than as part of a general railway collection. I’m still a bit unsure about Kettering Furnaces no. 3 and whether being restored to running condition in a context that’s not relevant to the loco’s own history is the best decision; apparently it’s largely in as-withdrawn condition having not steamed since the 1960s. To be fair the same argument could also be applied to Scaldwell at Southwold, but having been displayed outside for years (unlike Kettering) that was probably going to need some quite heavy restoration anyway at some point.

[AMJ]

Most of the overall details are listed in Steam Beano  https://gb.readly.com/magazines/steam-railway/2024-02-01/65b44c6a8354d721caf1b3b0

 

[VIA185]

You can read how Fire Queen and the directors' saloon were recovered to Penrhyn Castle in the current issue of Trackside - the article originally published last year in Steam World. The collection at Penrhyn Castle has been being revised for several years. My GWR signs were returned to me a couple of years ago. Part of the reason for so much of railway interest going to Penrhyn Castle in the late 1960s/70s was a simple matter of logistics - students from Bangor University Railway Society did a lot of the hard graft of rescue and restoration and Penrhyn Castle was convenient and local for them. (CJL)

[eldomtom2]

On 29/01/2024 at 23:25, 009 micro modeller said:

I’m aware of the “culture clash” and issues around that as I work in the heritage sector, however in the case of the National Trust a lot of the outrage (usually around research into links to colonialism) seems to have been whipped up and politicised by reactionary media outlets and their supporters, who apparently don’t want anything to be researched in a deeper and more nuanced way than before, or to have their existing worldview challenged.

Hmmm - I don't the use of the word "politicise" is fair here. If you asked the writers of the "Addressing the Past" report which kicked off a lot of the debate, I'm sure they'd say that their research is relevant today...

[009 micro modeller]

45 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

If you asked the writers of the "Addressing the Past" report which kicked off a lot of the debate, I'm sure they'd say that their research is relevant today...

Where did I say the research wasn’t relevant today? The point being made is clearly about (usually right-wing) tabloid “journalists” who don’t really seem to understand the purpose of museums, or how academic historical research works.

[Nearholmer]

Unfortunately, the topic has very definitely been politicised, as I found out when a load of very reactionary campaigning stuff started to materialise on my Facebook feed. You only have to read the comments under postings about the topic to understand that those opposed to the NT lifting the veil from subjects that people would rather not hear about regard this as a culture war to be fought very hard indeed.

[eldomtom2]

18 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Where did I say the research wasn’t relevant today?

So it isn't apolitical, right?

19 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Where did I say the research wasn’t relevant today? The point being made is clearly about (usually right-wing) tabloid “journalists” who don’t really seem to understand the purpose of museums, or how academic historical research works.

This is assuming that there is a definition of "the purpose of museums" that everyone agrees on. I don't think there is.

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Unfortunately, the topic has very definitely been politicised

I'm saying the topic was political from the start, and thus was unable to be politicised.

[Nearholmer]

Ah, I get it. 
 

If you read back up thread, I actually said something similar myself, in that all decisions about how to teach/present/portray/emphasise-deemphasise/etc history are political with a small ‘p’.

 

I’ll re-phrase then: it’s now fallen into the same swirling pit of angry polarisation that everything else even slightly controversial falls into these days.

 

 

Edited March 15 by Nearholmer

[Ben B]

On 02/02/2024 at 12:43, 009 micro modeller said:

Does anyone know if the Ruston diesel is moving, or staying to operate the demonstration line outside with what I think are mostly Penrhyn wagons? Interestingly the non-loco rolling stock collection is quite large and often relevant to Penrhyn, so presumably a lot will still be there. Not sure about the Padarn velocipedes though as I don’t think there were any hugely similar vehicles at Penrhyn whose history they can be used to explain.

 

Personally I assumed that the courtyard and much of the stable block at Penrhyn Castle will probably end up as an expanded cafe/retail operation; it occurred to me last time I was there (as an ex-NT Catering employee) that, with a bigger focus on commercial and retail, it would make more sense to have it as an eatery.  There seemed to be a certain amount of conflict between the spreading tables and the inconveniently large 2ft gauge shunting-layout train set in the middle...  Not saying it's the sort of thing I like to see, more what I expect to see happen.  But if it helps the places stay open in these difficult times, I can't really knock an increased attention on retail/catering. 

 

It's interesting that apparently 1054, the Coal Tank, has been formerly handed over to the BLS, based at the Worth Valley.  I don't mind that (it's my local line and I love the loco, and it's been based here for a while)... what always interested me was when I worked at East Rids in Keighley, a number of the managers were completely unaware the NT had a loco about 2 miles away, as it wasn't in our property portfolio.

 

Personally I have NT membership because I go to Wales a lot (family on Anglesey), and the NT seem to control almost every decent car park in Gwynned, and an awful lot of very, very nice beaches, so it makes it the most convenient and cheapest way to access a lot of lovely countryside.

[009 micro modeller]

3 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

So it isn't apolitical, right?

Perhaps not, though really, nothing truly is. The point though is that there’s a reactionary section of the media, and perhaps the public, who seem to get unreasonably outraged at any museum interpretation or historical narrative that isn’t mindlessly celebratory, nationalistic, and a bit simplistic. This sort of discourse is ripe to be co-opted for more overtly political ends by certain politicians and public figures, sometimes threatening the editorial independence of heritage organisations and, arguably, the principle of ‘arm’s length’ organisations.

 

3 hours ago, eldomtom2 said:

This is assuming that there is a definition of "the purpose of museums" that everyone agrees on. I don't think there is.

Indeed, and I don’t think there is either. The issue I have with some of the more hysterical attempts at “journalism” on this subject is that they don’t seem to want to actually engage in any debate on said definition, or understand why such a debate might exist. I get a similar impression from reading some of the articles opposing the reinterpretation of country houses, research into colonial links and so on - when you get to the root of it, some of this opposition just seems to be rejecting any kind of new research that complicates or challenges previous narratives, even on subjects that aren’t seen as very controversial. Historians have always ‘rewritten history’ in some way or other, and to be honest I find it quite sad that anyone who claims to care about a historic site would not wish to see it researched, explored and written about from the widest range of possible angles.

 

Clandon Park is possibly relevant here (but bear with me) - the National Trust wanted to conserve it in its damaged state, preserving what was left of the original material and showing the underlying construction of the house. The Restore Trust wanted to try and restore it as far as possible to its condition before the fire. Perhaps not one of their more headline-grabbing or topical moments (unlike their opposition to the Colonial Countryside project, for instance), and not an especially unreasonable position to take (Uppark was restored, after all), but for me the symbolism of the Restore Trust’s take on this is interesting. Not wanting to show how (or by whom?) the country house was constructed, papering over the history and making it look nice, and prioritising giving visitors what they’ve come to expect over the conservation of the remaining original material - only in a more literal sense than usual.

[Nearholmer]

Off at a wild tangent, but IMO one of the most interesting and atmospheric NT houses is Chastleton, which is (a) preserved in “as acquired” condition, rather than restored, and (b) still quite close to its original C17th condition, because the family that owned it were financially ruined by picking the wrong side in The Civil War.

[009 micro modeller]

2 hours ago, Ben B said:

Personally I assumed that the courtyard and much of the stable block at Penrhyn Castle will probably end up as an expanded cafe/retail operation; it occurred to me last time I was there (as an ex-NT Catering employee) that, with a bigger focus on commercial and retail, it would make more sense to have it as an eatery.  There seemed to be a certain amount of conflict between the spreading tables and the inconveniently large 2ft gauge shunting-layout train set in the middle...  Not saying it's the sort of thing I like to see, more what I expect to see happen.  But if it helps the places stay open in these difficult times, I can't really knock an increased attention on retail/catering. 

Are we sure that the Ruston diesel doesn’t have any links to Penrhyn? I know Dinorwic used a few diesels on their quarry lines in the last few years of operation (possibly after closure of the Padarn line actually, but that had its own older Hardy petrol loco) but wasn’t sure about their competitors over in Bethesda. I’ve always thought the demonstration line at the castle would make a good subject for a micro layout, as it’s literally a shunting puzzle in 1:1 scale, in a castle. I must admit though that I haven’t actually seen it operating and it seems an oddly cramped setting for it (though presumably they can’t have a demonstration line outside the castle walls even if they wanted to, as I think the parkland itself is listed). Some of the ex-Penrhyn wagons in the courtyard may be better off inside and under cover anyway - perhaps they will be as part of the new display? It would be a shame though to lose the shunting demonstration line, but on the other hand I don’t know how much use it gets currently. I’m mainly interested in the diesel loco as it seems to have been missed from most of the discussion on where the locos are moving to etc. Presumably the demonstration line is around 2’ gauge and not the unusual 1’ 10 3/4” originally used by Dinorwic and Penrhyn?

[009 micro modeller]

5 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Off at a wild tangent, but IMO one of the most interesting and atmospheric NT houses is Chastleton, which is (a) preserved in “as acquired” condition, rather than restored,

That sounds interesting (and on the subject of wild tangents, I feel like that ship has probably already sailed on this thread). There’s probably a school of thought that says you should have different rooms restored to represent different periods,* but I tend to think it’s not worth removing the original material that doesn’t fit in with the chosen period to get that, and that it’s more interesting to see the different layers of history.

 

*Obvious comparison with heritage railways that have different stations restored to represent different periods. The difference there though is that it’s operational rather than completely conserved, and in many cases they started with not much left and had to rebuild the stations from the ground up, so could furnish and paint them however they liked.