Fleischmann 4016 BR 70 overloading the controller

[MattR]

Re-writing this post to more accurately describe what's happening.

 

Recently I picked up Fleischmann’s H0 BR 70 (model number 4016) with the old Ringfield-style motor. I serviced it and it runs great (albeit noisy) -- smooth, good at low speeds, good torque/pulling power

 

However, it runs fine for a bit (see times in later posts), then overloads the controller and trips the circuit breaker in it (I use a Bachmann trainset controller, which I have three of on different layout and never had any issues with them). The controller gets very hot before tripping. The locomotive feels normal, just a little warm as normal.

 

I’m new to Fleischmann — does anyone who knows these motors have an idea of where to start looking to remedy this, short of buying a whole new motor?

 

Edited January 26 by MattR
Better description

[steve1]

Could it be slop in the rods, causing them to touch something? This is pure speculation, not knowledge by the way.

 

steve

[MattR]

Not that I can see. I've added lots of insulation tape around areas where wires come in contact with metal, but no changes. Removed the weight (which sits on a plastic spacer over the metal valve-gear brackets -- nothing.

 

I decided to time it to see how long it takes to short out the track

 

- Run #1 (boiler forward, clockwise): 7 minutes, 28 seconds

- Run #2 (boiler forward, clockwise): 4 minutes 57 seconds

- Run #3 (bunker forward, counter-clockwise): 9 minutes, 12 seconds

- Run #4 (bunker forward, counter-clockwise): 4 minutes, 9 seconds

[MattR]

- Run #5 (boiler forward, counter-clockwise) : 10 minutes 20 seconds

- Run #6 (boiler forward, counter-clockwise): 12 minutes 24 seconds 

 

The controller gets very hot and then the circuit breaker inside trips. You unplug it and in resets after 2-3 minutes.

 

Heat from loco motor is barely discernible.

 

 

Edited January 26 by MattR

[Ian Morgan]

Sounds like excessive current draw causing the controller to trip. Probable cause - weak magnet in the motor needs remagnetising.

 

[readingtype]

Might  also be the interference suppression capacitor, the black blob between the two brush holders, getting old. The resistance of the motor coils will be pretty low so that would best not form part of the test. Maybe unsolder one leg of the capacitor and measure across it to see if its resistance to DC is also very low. Caps in good order have a high DC resistance and a low AC resistance.

[MattR]

3 hours ago, Ian Morgan said:

Sounds like excessive current draw causing the controller to trip. Probable cause - weak magnet in the motor needs remagnetising.

 

 

Good idea! Unfortunately I'd have to get a pinion gear puller to get the commutator out of the housing, as well as a remagnetizer.

 

Quote

Might  also be the interference suppression capacitor, the black blob between the two brush holders, getting old. The resistance of the motor coils will be pretty low so that would best not form part of the test. Maybe unsolder one leg of the capacitor and measure across it to see if its resistance to DC is also very low. Caps in good order have a high DC resistance and a low AC resistance.

 

Another good idea. I'll have to look up how to do that on my multimeter.

 

I guess a replacement motor sounds like the best option, but I'm not seeing any on eBay. Apparently there used to be an Australian company called Motortorque that made CD motor replacements for Fleischmann ringfield/pancake motors, but they went out of business 10 years ago.

[MattR]

Since technically the locomotive is drawing too much power and overloading the controller (and not really shorting out the track due to a short circuit somewhere) I've reworded the original post to be more accurate.

[SimonHMT]

On 26/01/2024 at 12:01, readingtype said:

Might  also be the interference suppression capacitor, the black blob between the two brush holders, getting old. The resistance of the motor coils will be pretty low so that would best not form part of the test. Maybe unsolder one leg of the capacitor and measure across it to see if its resistance to DC is also very low. Caps in good order have a high DC resistance and a low AC resistance.

I wondered about that. If you disconnect the capacitor the loco should still run, so you could eliminate it as the cause by testing the loco without it...if the problem goes away, it's a duff capacitor.

Be aware that running the loco without the capacitor, which is intended to present a short circuit to any Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) caused by sparks between the brushes and commutator, may cause interference to some items, particularly old-tech analogue radios and TVs, so it would be best practice to replace it. If the capacitor has failed, it may well present a low resistance to the DC traction current, perhaps decreasing as it gets warmer, then becoming low enough to overload the controller. In this case, I'd expect the capacitor to get hot, as the energy flowing through it has to go somewhere!

Good luck solving this, I remember the BR70 being one of my favourite locos in the Fleischmann catalogues my Dad used to get in the 1970s!

Simon.

[rekoboy]

Old(er) Fleischmann motors tend, like old Gützold or Hornby Dublo ones, to draw a lot of power compared to modern motors. What is the rating of the Bachmann power controllers? Do they have a sufficient continuous output for such old ladies? It would be interesting to check what power the Fleischmann motor is drawing. I would test the loco with a higher-rated power controller first before blaming a weak magnet or a duff capacitor.

Edited January 29 by rekoboy

[MattR]

The wall power pack (remember I am in the U.S.) reads "Input: AC120V 60Hz 24W. Output: AC16V 1000mA." Do I need a more powerful power supply?

[rekoboy]

1000mA is 1 amp at the mains transformer (separate 'wall wart', as they say?) but what is the rating of the controller? Do you have any other power packs, not Bachmann, to test the loco?

Edited January 29 by rekoboy

[MattR]

Looks like the controller's output to the track is 0.6 amps.

 

The only other controller I have is an old Tyco Tyco-Pak rated at 1 amp. I used to have a Hornby Sir Dinadan that would overload this controller the same way the Fleischmann is doing to the Bachmann one.

 

 

Edited January 29 by MattR

[rekoboy]

As I wrote in an earlier post, older Fleischmann, Gützold, Hornby Dublo motors tend to draw a lot of power - I think a rating of 0.6 amp/600mA on the controller is not sufficient for continuous use. The overload protection on the controller is very likely a bi-metal strip which will be heating up nicely as the Fleischmann loco runs. Fleischmann's own power units from the past (and those by Piko and Trix) deliver a meaty 1.2 amps to the track.

[MattR]

Thanks for your help! I'd rather it be my apparently wimpy controller than such an otherwise nice-running locomotive.

[MattR]

8 hours ago, SimonHMT said:

I remember the BR70 being one of my favourite locos in the Fleischmann catalogues my Dad used to get in the 1970s!

Simon.

 

It really is very nice and good to see a Ringfield/pancake motor that doesn't involve traction tires or split axles.

 

The only odd thing about the loco is that it's rather overscale -- one forum I saw suggested 1/78 scale, which makes it look huge against the little four-wheel Marklin coaches, yet the coupler is up too high to hook up to OO stock.

[andyman7]

I concur that the controller is probably not up to the job. From your notes it is tripping after several minuted of continuous running and the motor itself is not hot. Both Hornby and Bachmann trainset controllers are designed for modern low current motors and wimp out at the older stuff

[D9020 Nimbus]

Just to say that the Gaugemaster Combi has an output of 1 amp. It has no problems with old Hornby-Dublo locos, but obviously I don't know whether it can be obtained where you are.

 

There is also a much more recent, and much more accurate, model of the BR70 from Fleischmann (now from Roco).

[MattR]

I've got it on a test run right now with the 1-amp Tyco controller from 1983. The speed control on this thing is terrible.  The loco comes to life only at 25% power, at which it races around the track. On the Bachmann I could get it to start nice and slow at less than 10% power.

Edited January 29 by MattR

[MattR]

You guys nailed it. It's been flying around the track for 30 minutes on the 1-amp controller without issue. Controller is only slightly warm. I guess I'm in the market now for a better controller!

 

Thanks again!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Must admit I read this thread with some relief - having also recently bought an older Fleischmann loco:

 

 

I don’t have any testing equipment to check voltage or current / power.  Fortunately both of my controllers just happen to be Gaugemaster Combi models which @D9020 Nimbus notes should be OK.

 

In my case I bought the controllers as they were recommended to me for H0e use.

 

A very useful thread for those of us buying second hand - thank you to @MattR and all the contributors: lack of controller power wasn’t something I’d factored into my purchase decision!  Keith.

 

Edited January 31 by Keith Addenbrooke

[readingtype]

The Flm BR 94 is a bit of a classic ! No traction tyres needed there :-)

 

Ben

[GrumpyPenguin]

The older Fleischmann motors draw around .3/.5amp when they are running well.

They can still appear to run well and draw .75amp or even more without appearing to run hot.

Check that the carbon brushes are moving freely in the holders, the springs OK and remove the backplate to clean any carbon dust away. Whilst the backplate if off check that the commutator segments are clear of muck.

& finally, before reassembly do the armature coils show any sign of overheating - they should be just shiny - if they are dark then they have been running hot - often you get one dark coil - if that's the case then replace the armature.

Reassemble with a tiny amount of oil on all the bearings (not forgetting the gear spindles & the other moving parts) - some silicon grease on the gear teeth with help too.

& finally, finally - if you have the mazdak/allow primary gear the it will pull off quite easily - I would suggest that you replace it with a brass one.

 

 

[MattR]

Motor was cleaned and serviced when it first arrived. Brushes and springs looked fine. The only thing I didn't check was the coils, since I'd have to remove the pinion gear to see the back of the armature, and I don't have a gear puller. Anyway, new higher-output controller has been purchased and is on the way.

[GrumpyPenguin]

On 05/02/2024 at 14:54, MattR said:

Motor was cleaned and serviced when it first arrived. Brushes and springs looked fine. The only thing I didn't check was the coils, since I'd have to remove the pinion gear to see the back of the armature, and I don't have a gear puller. Anyway, new higher-output controller has been purchased and is on the way.

You can check the armature coils without pulling off the primary gear - remove the brush caps & brushes, undo the backplate screws & gently move the backplate away & yoiu can check the coils.