Hornby TT:120 21 ton mineral wagons

[Porfuera]

I thought I'd kick off a thread on these wagons, seeing as they may be the next TT:120 wagons to arrive - assuming the HAAs don't overtake them and beat them to it.

 

I know everyone and his dog would have preferred Hornby to have produced the 16 ton minerals instead of these, but it is what it is. I'm sure someone will produce 16T minerals at some point - maybe Peco if not Hornby themselves... Roll on April - maybe they will be announced then?

 

I for one am looking forward to these arriving - more stock can only be a good thing, right? And for me these (reasonably) modern-image wagons are even better. And I guess the chassis can be used under 3D printed bodies of other wagons and they would be cheaper than using the chassis from the TTAs.

 

These appear to be the pre-production prototypes (photo from Key Model World):

 

 

I'm not an expert (on anything) but the online shop seems to be a bit confused over the Eras and identities for these wagons. They are listed and pictured as:

 

TT6015 21T Mineral Wagon, B314633 - Era 5 (bauxite livery is pictured)

 

TT6016 21T Mineral wagon, P200781 - Era 4 (grey livery is pictured)

 

TT6017 21T Mineral Wagon, B316500 - Era 6 (Glenhafod livery is pictured)

 

It seems to me that the Glenhafod wagon should be the Era 4 wagon rather than the grey livery that is pictured in the shop. I guess that the 'P' prefix on P200781 indicates Private Owner and since the colliery was closed by the National Coal Board on November 28th 1958 then this would make these Glenhafod wagons Era 4/5.

 

And seeing that the running number of the grey wagon in the photo above is B316500 then it seems that pictures on the shop entries for TT6016 and TT6017 have been swapped around.

 

However, IIRC someone (sorry I can't remember who you were) has already pointed out that both the grey and the bauxite wagons have TOPS codes (MDO and MDV respectively) so should those both be Era 7? Does anyone out there have a definitive answer to this?

 

To finish off, here is a picture of the undersides of the wagons (also from Key Model World):

 

 

Edited February 4 by Porfuera
Clarification

[Porfuera]

And something I nearly forgot - the online shop gives the lengths of all three 21T minerals as 5.5cm, which seems a little short to me given that the PO opens and the vent vans are given as 6.4cm and 6.6cm respectively (I assume those lengths include the couplings).

 

Measuring from an 0 Gauge Grampus and rescaling, I worked out that the length should be more like 62mm over buffers and maybe 72mm overall length (allowing 10mm for the couplings). Any ideas?

 

Obviously the effective overall length for wagons in a rake will work out slightly less than this because there is some overlap in the couplings when they're coupled up.

[Flying Pig]

5.5cm is about right for the prototype's 21'6" over headstocks, so not including couplings.

[GenericRMWebUsername]

Thanks for launching this! I noticed they had TOPS codes too. I found it odd myself. I think with the launch of the range, Hornby had several detail inaccuracies in their marketing. I know for sure the TTA Total Tank is mislabeled as Era 7 when it should be Era 8. It's unfortunate, since their marketing team is generally not too responsive when it comes to suggestions to fix stuff. I found an inaccuracy in one of the HST Mk 3 coaches nearly a year ago, and emailed inquiring on the point. They responded that yes the website is wrong, but it would be caught before production. It better be. It's still inaccurate to this day!  

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

I thought I'd kick off a thread on these wagons, seeing as they may be the next TT:120 wagons to arrive - assuming the HAAs don't overtake them and beat them to it.

 

I know everyone and his dog would have preferred Hornby to have produced the 16 ton minerals instead of these, but it is what it is. I'm sure someone will produce 16T minerals at some point - maybe Peco if not Hornby themselves... Roll on April - maybe they will be announced then?

 

I for one am looking forward to these arriving - more stock can only be a good thing, right? And for me these (reasonably) modern-image wagons are even better. And I guess the chassis can be used under 3D printed bodies of other wagons and they would be cheaper than using the chassis from the TTAs.

 

These appear to be the pre-production prototypes (photo from Key Model World):

 

 

I'm not an expert (on anything) but the online shop seems to be a bit confused over the Eras and identities for these wagons. They are listed and pictured as:

 

TT6015 21T Mineral Wagon, B314633 - Era 5 (bauxite livery is pictured)

 

TT6016 21T Mineral wagon, P200781 - Era 4 (grey livery is pictured)

 

TT6017 21T Mineral Wagon, B316500 - Era 6 (Glenhafod livery is pictured)

 

It seems to me that the Glenhafod wagon should be the Era 4 wagon rather than the grey livery that is pictured in the shop. I guess that the 'P' prefix on P200781 indicates Private Owner and since the colliery was closed by the National Coal Board on November 28th 1958 then this would make these Glenhafod wagons Era 4/5.

 

And seeing that the running number of the grey wagon in the photo above is B316500 then it seems that pictures on the shop entries for TT6016 and TT6017 have been swapped around.

 

However, IIRC someone (sorry I can't remember who you were) has already pointed out that both the grey and the bauxite wagons have TOPS codes (MDO and MDV respectively) so should those both be Era 7? Does anyone out there have a definitive answer to this?

 

To finish off, here is a picture of the undersides of the wagons (also from Key Model World):

 

 

 

Has anyone noticed that the bauxite wagon has top doors , like an MEO, 24.5T - but the other two do not? So two bodies have been tooled up

 

The PO version really ought to be pre-nationalisation and therefore a GW dia N32 "Felix Pole" mineral , built for hire-purchase to persuade S Wales colliery owners to modernise. It does not carry a P -series number. Dia N32 is the basis for the old OO 21T minerals from Hornby and Airfix in the 1970ps

 

The grey version carries a number BR do not seem to have used, according to Rowland's appendices: no numbers between B314999 and B 333000 were issued . It could be an N32 numbered as P200781, or it could be a welded wagon from the 1951 build to dia 1/107, B201000-B202499

 

The bauxite wagon should by the number be to dia 1/119 , with top flaps , lot 3439, Derby 1962 

[Ravenser]

51 minutes ago, Flying Pig said:

5.5cm is about right for the prototype's 21'6" over headstocks, so not including couplings.

Since it's an imperial scale 1/10" to the foot, this should be  2.15" long over headstocks

[markw]

12 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Has anyone noticed that the bauxite wagon has top doors , like an MEO, 24.5T - but the other two do not? So two bodies have been tooled up

 

The PO version really ought to be pre-nationalisation and therefore a GW dia N32 "Felix Pole" mineral , built for hire-purchase to persuade S Wales colliery owners to modernise. It does not carry a P -series number. Dia N32 is the basis for the old OO 21T minerals from Hornby and Airfix in the 1970ps

 

The grey version carries a number BR do not seem to have used, according to Rowland's appendices: no numbers between B314999 and B 333000 were issued . It could be an N32 numbered as P200781, or it could be a welded wagon from the 1951 build to dia 1/107, B201000-B202499

 

The bauxite wagon should by the number be to dia 1/119 , with top flaps , lot 3439, Derby 1962 

Yes there are two bodies and two underframes so effectively two different wagons.

The fitted one is Diagram 1/120 not 1/119 and the unfitted is one of the Shildon 1971/2 rebuilds numbered B315000-317599, and correctly has the narrower top lip.

[MartinRS]

Does the bauxite wagon with the diagonal white stripe have an end door?

[Porfuera]

2 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

5.5cm is about right for the prototype's 21'6" over headstocks, so not including couplings.

 

I think the lengths in the shop are the overall lengths including couplings but if not then I think they would at least include the buffers rather than being over headstocks.

Either way shouldn't the 21T minerals be longer than the vent vans and the 7-plank PO wagons rather than shorter? Don't they have a 12-foot wheelbase rather than 10-foot?

 

I think I measured the TT:120 PO wagons and the vent vans a while back and from what I remember they corresponded to the lengths given in the shop (and included the couplings) so I don't think it is the case that those lengths are wrong.

 

Edited February 4 by Porfuera

[Flying Pig]

12 minutes ago, Porfuera said:

 

I think the lengths in the shop are the overall lengths including couplings but if not then I think they would at least include the buffers rather than being over headstocks.

In any event shouldn't the 21T minerals be longer than the vent vans and the 7-plank PO wagons rather than shorter? Don't they have a 12-foot wheelbase rather than 10-foot?

 

I think I measured the TT:120 PO wagons and the vent vans a while back and from what I remember they corresponded to the lengths given in the shop (and included the couplings) so I don't think it is the case that those lengths are wrong.

 

 

But 5.5cm is correct over headstocks, so it looks like someone has either measured that or just scaled the prototype figure.  The smaller wagons should be about 4.4cm (17'6") over headstocks if you want to measure them.  There seems to be some confusion in Hornby's marketing team over what dimension is being quoted.  I wouldn't worry about it.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Has anyone noticed that the bauxite wagon has top doors , like an MEO, 24.5T - but the other two do not? So two bodies have been tooled up

 

The PO version really ought to be pre-nationalisation and therefore a GW dia N32 "Felix Pole" mineral , built for hire-purchase to persuade S Wales colliery owners to modernise. It does not carry a P -series number. Dia N32 is the basis for the old OO 21T minerals from Hornby and Airfix in the 1970ps

 

The grey version carries a number BR do not seem to have used, according to Rowland's appendices: no numbers between B314999 and B 333000 were issued . It could be an N32 numbered as P200781, or it could be a welded wagon from the 1951 build to dia 1/107, B201000-B202499

 

The bauxite wagon should by the number be to dia 1/119 , with top flaps , lot 3439, Derby 1962 

The vacuum-braked 21-tonner seems to have the correct arrangement of brake shoes which would mean they've tooled p two types of  body AND underframes

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

I wouldn't worry about it.

 

I'm not worried. I wanted to know whether my guestimate of "62mm over buffers and maybe 72mm overall length (allowing 10mm for the couplings)" was reasonable or way off - potential layout planning!

 

Edited February 4 by Porfuera

[Porfuera]

3 hours ago, MartinRS said:

Does the bauxite wagon with the diagonal white stripe have an end door?

 

This is the best view I have managed to find so far and it looks like it has one end door similar to the end door that can be seen on the Glenhafod wagon above.

 

The image is from last July's Train Terminal called "Class 50 and a Rake of Wagons" (so presumably it is the real thing rather than a photoshop of a 00 wagon) and all three variants appear to have the same:

 

Edited February 4 by Porfuera

[MartinRS]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

 

This is the best view I have managed to find so far and it looks like it has one end door similar to the end door that can be seen on the Glenhafod wagon above.

 

The image is from last July's Train Terminal called "Class 50 and a Rake of Wagons" (so presumably it is the real thing rather than a photoshop of a 00 wagon) and all three variants appear to have the same:

 

Thanks. Looking carefully at the first photo you uploaded I can just see some door detail extending beyond the right hand edge of the bauxite wagon. I raised the question because I can't see any indication of the door's outline on the inside of the wagon in that first picture though. Your latest upload certainly shows evidence of an end door.