Light railway standard gauge locomotives, were tender engine necessary?

[Tom Burnham]

On 13/02/2024 at 16:33, Steamport Southport said:

 

Well, you have linked to Colonel Stephens whose railways did have large 0-6-2Ts and even 0-8-0Ts!

 

 

https://colonelstephenssociety.co.uk/locomotive notes topics/hawthorn leslie.html

 

 

 

Jason

 

The Callington 0-6-0Ts were a success but the Shropshire & Montgomeryshire ones weren't and were disposed of pretty quickly.  Hecate was somewhat of a white elephant on the K&ESR (apart from cattle trains for the once yearly Biddenden Fair) but was quite a useful shunter when it went to the Southern Railway.  But I don't think any main line company would have regarded any of them as large.

[DCB]

On 14/02/2024 at 14:46, Sabato said:

And on its opening in July 1925, services were worked by Adams 460 class 4-4-0s until 1927 and the infiltration of the "new" E1r tanks. It so happened that there were turntables at each end of the line.

The North Devon & Cornwall Junction Railway, 

5 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

The story goes that the operating people really liked the 2 Hawthorn Leslie 0-6-2Ts they'd inherited from the PD&SWJR (Callington branch) and wanted the Southern to buy some more, but they were obliged to make do with what could be produced in house...

 

The N D & C was originally narrow gauge and needed extensive repair circa 1925, It was converted to Standard Gauge as part  of the upgrade.   The SR had no suitable locos and the most modern six coupled tank locos were the PDSWJ 0-6-2Ts   apparently the cost for some more new ones was a bit eye opening and with electrification releasing surplus steam locos and new N class moguls available from Woolwich at knock down prices , probably less than an 0-6-2T it was decided that E1 class 0-6-0Ts could be made available for rebuilding as 0-6-2 Tanks using N class  pony truck components from Woolwich to make them suitable for Light Railway use.
Obviously what they needed was a GWR 2021 class pannier, 3 ton plus coal capacity, dynamically balanced wheels 50mph plus capable, but they used a shunter which was OK up to 25 or so but only held about 1 ton of coal.  The later E2 "Thomas" only held 1 ton so  assume the E1 was similar.   So E1s arrived for Clay and goods workings between Halwill jct and Torrington where the N D & C joined the LSWR Main line end on.   All was perfect until  the N's came and Ilfacombe became the destination of the main portion of the Waterloo trains as N's could get 6 coaches up the Banks and Torrington the destination of a Through portion, previously the main portion was to Torrington with Exmouth Jct power and the Ilfracombe section taken by a Barnstaple loco.
E1Rs thus found themselves working expresses and they were extremely uncomfortable at speed.  The 460 class were retained and took over through passenger workings to Barnstaple while a further batch of E1Rs were cobbled up with balanced, that would be dynamically balanced wheels suitable for express speeds of over 30 mph.   Somewhere along the history Torrington lost its turntable which would have turned 460 class and presumably T9, K10 etc and Ilfracombe gained a 70 (?) footer which later turned WC and Bob classes  I don't know if the earlier E1Rs ever had their balance weights changed but some found work as bankers from Exeter St Davids (GWR) to central about 1 in 35 or about twice as steep as Beattock or Shap

While I'm waffling for many years the sole PSWJ 0-6-0T and the Meldon Quarry G6 were the only SR 0-6-0Ts west of Exeter and Exeter kept one tank latterly a Z for freight shunting in the Exeter area.  Until Barnstaple got its gronk there were no shunting engines on the withered arm, N and M7 doing most shunting in BR days after the cull of the small 4-4-0s circa 1948/51.    Absolutely the antithesis of the GWR who were 0-6-0PT   mad.  The ND&C was a 25 mph limited light railway bit according to various railway mans' reminiscences  the Ivatt and BR 2-6-2T s went very much faster than 25 mph on the passengers between Torrington and Hawlill jct 

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, DCB said:

but they used a shunter which was OK up to 25

E1 tanks weren’t shunters, they were road goods engines, but by the date in question had become well-outclassed by the traffic and were being withdrawn. Electrification had nothing to do with it, because the goods trains remained steam-hauled. I think you’re right that they weren’t “fully balanced”, because the job they were designed for, and did very well, didn’t need it.

 

The E1R was in many respects an “action replay” of a much earlier locomotive, because the first of the very large fleets of “radials”, the Brighton 0-6-2T, was an E1 with extended bunker. I presume that it was decided to create E1R, rather than simply ship a batch of the existing 0-6–2T  across for a combination of axle-weight and flexibility-on-curves reasons (radial, rather than pony-truck). The other option must have been D1 tanks, 0-4-2T, which were good on tight curves at low speeds, and could go fast when the opportunity arose, but they had driving wheels too big for the job, and the same bunker size as the E.

 

 

Edited February 17 by Nearholmer

[Tom Burnham]

The North Devon & Cornwall Junction was the last flicker of proposals going back some 75 years for a railway connection between North Devon (including ports like Barnstaple and Fremington Quay) and the south coast via Hatherleigh.  It was an independent company until nationalisation although always worked by the Southern which also guaranteed interest on the debentures.  Most of these were held by the various local authorities in the area and there was a good deal of Government support.  It's not clear that the investment of public money was ever really justified, apart from some employment during construction.

[The Lurker]

15 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

He was resident engineer (under Edward Seaton) for the construction of the Hawkhurst branch.  I wasn't aware that he had any connection with the Elham valley line.

I think the Cranbrook and Paddock Wood was his first line - he was 22  - and I think the Eltham Valley line opened earlier than the Hawkhurst branch 

[Wickham Green too]

10 hours ago, DCB said:

... the sole PSWJ 0-6-0T and the Meldon Quarry G6 were the only SR 0-6-0Ts west of Exeter ...

... apart from the unlikely L.C.D.R. T class 500S - at Meldon 1938-48.

[Curlew]

Has anyone mentioned these?... best of both worlds

 

[DCB]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

E1 tanks weren’t shunters, they were road goods engines, but by the date in question had become well-outclassed by the traffic and were being withdrawn. Electrification had nothing to do with it, because the goods trains remained steam-hauled. I think you’re right that they weren’t “fully balanced”, because the job they were designed for, and did very well, didn’t need it.

 

The E1R was in many respects an “action replay” of a much earlier locomotive, because the first of the very large fleets of “radials”, the Brighton 0-6-2T, was an E1 with extended bunker. I presume that it was decided to create E1R, rather than simply ship a batch of the existing 0-6–2T  across for a combination of axle-weight and flexibility-on-curves reasons (radial, rather than pony-truck). The other option must have been D1 tanks, 0-4-2T, which were good on tight curves at low speeds, and could go fast when the opportunity arose, but they had driving wheels too big for the job, and the same bunker size as the E.

The E1 were "Local goods and Shunting Engines "  according to  Brian Haresnape in "Stroudley Locomotives" the coal capacity of 1 Ton 10cwts  meant the "Local" was quite literally true.  For some reason the the 0-4-2T D1  38 tons and the 0-6-0T E1 was 44 tons in working order with  15T 18 cwt on the rear axle.    Yellow in GW speak   The SR had 25 surplus E1s for sale in 1925, 10 became E1R  4 to the Isle of Wight and I think 5 were sold to industry, I guess the rest were scrapped, but only needs a tiny change in history for one to have been sold to your own Light Railway company.
The E1 with its poor riding and limited range would have been an obvious choice for early withdrawal, GW tanks of the period would run at 50MPH and carried 3 tons of coal by 1925.  The SR much preferred 0-6-2T which begs the question why not transfer 0-6-2Ts and replace them on shunting with E1s? 

[Nearholmer]

Yes, well, every loco hauling a pick-up goods train engaged in shunting. They were goods engines, and although they didn’t work the ‘trunk’ goods trains between the nodal sorting yards, in their day they were used very widely (hence so many), with some runs of very decent distances (c30 miles each way, with lots of station yards along the route). But, by the 1920s they were old, and the key issue was that loads had outgrown them.

 

The coal capacity clearly worked for the LBSCR at the time (1870s and 1880s) because the D1 was the same, and again they weren’t short-range locos. I can only guess that coal was topped-up at each end of a run.

As I said earlier, I think the reason that 0-6-2T weren’t transferred was probably that they had radial axle boxes, rather than rear pony trucks, so might not have coped very well with the curves, added to which even the E3 were still gainfully employed, doing what the E1 had been doing before them, in the 1920s. The others were very much in demand, and probably too big and heavy anyway.

 

 

 

Edited February 17 by Nearholmer

[JeremyC]

1 hour ago, Curlew said:

Has anyone mentioned these?... best of both worlds

 

Yes, those are the ones that worked the Lauder Light Railway.

[Wickham Green too]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

... The coal capacity clearly worked for the LBSCR at the time (1870s and 1880s) because the D1 was the same, and again they weren’t short-range locos. I can only guess that coal was topped-up at each end of a run. ...

The Brighton wasn't exactly a long-range railway anyway ..... for London to the coast ( wherever ) they'd have used tender locos or the bigger tanks ( I3 upwards ). A D1 might make it from London to Tunbridge Wells, say, and always had a shed it could retire to for a bit of TLC and nourishment.

[Nearholmer]

Yes, the nature of the railway - very few  dead-end branches, relatively short distances compared to other railways, and sheds at all the significant terminating points.

[Artless Bodger]

Were not some E1s originally fitted with Westinghouse pumps and painted IEG rather than goods green and used for passenger work on som eof the more steeply graded lines? Cuckoo Line?

[Nearholmer]

I think you’re right, and I’m pretty sure I’ve seen photos of them doing just that, but Bradley is the man for a definitive answer, and I’m not near my copy.

 

This looks as if it might be in passenger service, for instance:

 

Edited February 18 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Artless Bodger said:

Were not some E1s originally fitted with Westinghouse pumps and painted IEG rather than goods green and used for passenger work on som eof the more steeply graded lines? Cuckoo Line?

 

The Brighton Circle's web page on the class: 

https://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/Stroudley/E1.xhtml

has photos of No. 97 Honfleur, No. 148 Vienna, and No. 155 Brenner in both IEG and Goods Green and No. 145 France in IEG.

[Nick Holliday]

20 hours ago, Artless Bodger said:

Were not some E1s originally fitted with Westinghouse pumps and painted IEG rather than goods green and used for passenger work on some of the more steeply graded lines? Cuckoo Line?

For the record, I'm afraid you have mixed up two different factors. 

In 1880 a sudden upturn in suburban passenger traffic left the Brighton with a shortage of suitable tank locos.  Although a further batch of D1 tanks, the 0-4-2 type, was ordered, Brighton works was busy with building E1 tanks and the G Singles, so the order was placed with Nelson & Co, and wouldn't be available for a year or so, so the works upgraded 9 existing E1 tanks for passenger service, fitting the Westinghouse brake and screw coupling, improving the brakes (iron shoes) and the balancing, and painting in IEG.  A further 24 E1's under construction were similarly prepared.  These locos were still rather rough riding, and unpopular with passengers, but they just had to put up with the surging until further D1 tanks arrived in 1881/2, and the E1's could revert to primarily goods duties, and those at New Cross were quickly repainted in green, although the rest waited until their next visit to works.

Fitting Westinghouse brakes to other E1's was a slow process, 25 more receiving the brake in 1890/3, which also included fitting screw couplings instead of three links, and the addition of red lining either side of the black lining, although Westinghouse fitted ones were still used on some passenger duties, such as the Dyke Branch, and apparently all had received the air brake gear by grouping, just in time for the Southern to start fitting vacuum brakes!

The story of the Cuckoo Line involved the E1 Special Barcelona, No. 157. After the line opened in 1880, goods services were handled by miscellaneous Craven locos and some E1's, but the gradients were proving rather too taxing, so in 1884 Stroudley designed an improved E1 with Gladstone cylinders and the G Single boiler, resulting in a more powerful E1 on steroids.  For some reason, although intended for goods duties, Barcelona appeared in IEG, and it was under Billinton's regime, in June 1890, when it was changed to green.

[Artless Bodger]

Thank you to Nick Holliday and Compound2632 for your information, correcting my misconceptions.