Light railway standard gauge locomotives, were tender engine necessary?

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

The North Devon & Cornwall Junction Railway, another Stephens enterprise, opened in 1925, and closed to passenger traffic only 40 years later, freight traffic, ball-clay, continuing on part of the line until 1982. In its later years it was home to Ivatt 2MT 2-6-2 tanks, and BR Standard Class 2 tanks. Neither class is exactly big, but neither are they puny. 

The Colonel engineered many other 'light' railways outside his 'own' empire - Hawkhurst and Elham Valley lines come to mind where Wainwright's tender locos were commonplace.

[Rich Uncle Skeleton]

Probably not necessary, but available and cheap.

[bécasse]

The most significant point about the light railway clauses in the 1868 ROR Act was that it permitted such railways, which had to have been lightly constructed, to be subject to a less rigorous BoT inspection than was habitual. There do seem to have been a considerable number and most weren't, with hindsight, very obvious, as an example the L&SWR's final initial approach to Bournemouth was one of them. It seems probable that any line completed within the next decade or so after 1868 on which a 25 mph speed limit was imposed was in fact inspected under the provisions of the light railway clauses of the Act. The 8 ton axle load limit is a slight red herring in that, while the railway had to be lightly constructed, there was no requirement that structures or permanent way should be incapable of carrying a greater axle load, which was probably not that onerous anyway at that period.

[CKPR]

Rather ironically, the North Sunderland was reincorporated as a light railway under the 1898 Act after closing to traffic in 1951, presumably to facilitate 

formal abandonment and dismantling. Interestingly, the North Sunderland  remained an independent company to the end, albeit that it was effectively under the control of the LNER from the late 1930s, with this passing to BR who effectively closed it by ending the arrangements for hiring said Y7, etc.

[Dunalastair]

And of course many so-called Light Railway companies were actually tramways. The NG Burton & Ashby perhaps blurred the distinction, being part street tramway and part US-style interurban, but using double deck tramcars. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burton_and_Ashby_Light_Railway

 

https://www.travellingartgallery.com/landscape/historic/detail/H022/1915-electric-tram-on-burton-and-ashby-light-railway-by-cuthbert-hamilton-ellis.html

 

I don't think of the MR as a narrow gauge operator, but Statfold offers a re-creation of the experience with a repatriated car. It is a pity that there was not a goods service on the line (like the Camborne and Redruth)  to make it a more interesting Light Railway model, albeit electric not tender steam.

Edited February 14 by Dunalastair

[Sabato]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

The North Devon & Cornwall Junction Railway, another Stephens enterprise, opened in 1925, and closed to passenger traffic only 40 years later, freight traffic, ball-clay, continuing on part of the line until 1982. In its later years it was home to Ivatt 2MT 2-6-2 tanks, and BR Standard Class 2 tanks. Neither class is exactly big, but neither are they puny. 

And on its opening in July 1925, services were worked by Adams 460 class 4-4-0s until 1927 and the infiltration of the "new" E1r tanks. It so happened that there were turntables at each end of the line.

[Nearholmer]

37 minutes ago, Sabato said:

the infiltration of the "new" E1r

I’m not sure they sneaked in covertly; they were built for the line, after all.

[Sabato]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m not sure they sneaked in covertly; they were built for the line, after all.

True, but there was an overlap period when they worked alongside the 460 class.

 

 

[johnofwessex]

I have seen photo's of Industrial Tender loco's on the NCB Lampton system.

 

The Derwent Valley Light Railway hired 0-6-0 Tender loco's from the LNER & the Mid Suffolk by then under LNER/BR ownership was operated with J15's 

[clachnaharry]

The 6 mile long St. Combs light railway in North East Scotland was operated by an Ivatt Class 2 tender loco, complete with cowcatchers in the 1950s. The replacement Cravens DMU managed to get by without these attatchments.

[uax6]

41 minutes ago, clachnaharry said:

The 6 mile long St. Combs light railway in North East Scotland was operated by an Ivatt Class 2 tender loco, complete with cowcatchers in the 1950s. The replacement Cravens DMU managed to get by without these attatchments.

 

Now I'm sure I've seen a photo of a Cravens unit actually fitted with a Cowcatcher for use on the St. Combs light railway, but can I find it? 

 

Andy G

[MarcD]

The Lowca light railway near Workington was operated by a mixture of C&WJR tanks (all pretty small) and Furness locos including their Sharp Stewart 0-6-0 locos.

Marc

[Compound2632]

On 14/02/2024 at 14:14, Dunalastair said:

I don't think of the MR as a narrow gauge operator

 

The Midland had lines to all three legally-sanctioned gauges in the United Kingdom, including a considerable mileage of 3 ft gauge, and even more joint with the Great Northern. 

[Wickham Green too]

Four ? ......... the Bristol & Gloucester started off as Brunel gauge ! ( or was Mr.Brunel not sanctioned ? )

[Jeremy Cumberland]

7 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Four ? ......... the Bristol & Gloucester started off as Brunel gauge ! ( or was Mr.Brunel not sanctioned ? )

I assumed that was one of the three. Apart from "Standard" gauge, the other was, of course, 5'3"

[Wickham Green too]

But the three were 'including a considerable mileage of 3 ft gauge' - which by my maffs makes four !!?!

[Forward!]

Tender locomotives definitely ventured onto the North Lindsey Light Railway, which was privately built, but was operated as part of a 'proper' railway (the GCR), so may not be what you were getting at.

 

https://northlincsmuseumimagearchive.org.uk/frontend.php?keywords=Ref_No_increment;EQUALS;s06746&pos=2&action=zoom

 

Will

[Jeremy Cumberland]

58 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

But the three were 'including a considerable mileage of 3 ft gauge' - which by my maffs makes four !!?!

@Compound2632's "including" looks to be a mistake, and he should have written "as well as". The gauges were legally sanctioned by the Gauge of Railways Act 1846.

 

I've just read through the Act (it is very short: https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/HMG_Act_Reg1846.pdf), and note that clause 2 appears to allow any future railway "which is in its whole Length Southward of the Great Western Railway" to be constructed to any gauge the promoters wished; the mention of 7 ft applies only to the railways in clause 3.

 

I had not been aware that the Act made it illegal for broad gauge passenger-carrying lines to be converted to standard gauge.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

@Compound2632's "including" looks to be a mistake

 

I had in mind:

• 4' 8½" in Great Britain, as mandated by the 1846 act;
• 5' 3" in Ireland, as mandated by the 1846 act;
• 3' 0" in Ireland, which I believe was embodied in legislation promoting lighter railways in Ireland in the 1880s, though I've not found the reference.

The Midland also had, at various dates and certainly not simultaneously:

• 7' 0¼" gauge on the Bristol & Gloucester
• 4' gauge on the Little Eaton Gangway
• 3' 6" on the Burton & Ashby

[Nearholmer]

And, I bet if I dredged through all my archives of obscure industrial narrow gauge “sprigs”, I’d find that they had some odd bits of 2ft or less too, because it was so common as a way of shifting bulky loads short distances “back in the day”.

[Paul H Vigor]

On 14/02/2024 at 04:47, DCB said:

I think the K&ESR 0-8-0T was bought to operate heavy goods on an extension which was never built, the SR swapped a saddle Tank and spare boiler for it I understand.   Tender engines had a bit of a drawback in that they really needed turning at journeys end and turntables not  common on light railways.  Conversely they were ideal as they could be kept in steam for hours without running out of water while the  crew jacked and heaved them back on after a derailment, where a tank would have had its fire thrown out to avoid dropping a plug.

There were not many suitable locos available new in the 1895-1905  Light Railway Mania era, and fewer second hand, Railways were scrapping small large wheeled tender locos out classed by heavier stock,  too feeble for goods or shunting  while redeploying, often rebuilding small goods locos for shunting, which was a popular and entirely  wasteful revenue wise UK fetish.   Without wasting effort on having bespoke designs drawn up the standard shunting locos from Beyer peacock, Manning Wardle et al  were the obvious choices,  The light and otherwise suitable colonial export designs tended to be out of gauge, too high and wide, but there were surplus suburban locos available for sale down south, Brighton Terriers and Adams 4-4-2Ts were snapped up, the MSWJR tried to get rid of a couple of its 0-6-0Ts and I believe a couple of 2-4-0Ts but no on was daft enough.   . Some LSWR Ilfracombe Goods were also used by light railways but this was later I believe.
Railway companies were not allowed to build new for other organisations but could sell second hand surplus stock.    So it was not what was wanted but what was available at an affordable price, they wanted a BMW 320i  and got a Ford focus 1.0 Egotech.   to use a motoring analogy, then again traffic levels hovered around 20% of estimates so  no new stock was generally required to cover additional services and  once Col Stephens was in charge he was able to swap locos around when  the supply of bodgable motive power on one railway ran out while another had a surplus power.   For a modeller we are stuck with basically Terriers maybe Hornby Pecketts, and not much else even if going freelance really it only adds the Adams Radial.
I have a horrible feeling if the Isle of Skye line which I hope to model had been built it would have inherited HR 2-4-0 or 4-4-0 tender loco from across the way at Kyle which were being withdrawn around 1895/9 and scratch building them is beyond me.

The Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Railway had some LNWR 17" Coal Engines on the books, I believe?

[MarcD]

Pentewan railway used tender locos for most of it's life.

Marc

[Tom Burnham]

9 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

The Shropshire and Montgomeryshire Railway had some LNWR 17" Coal Engines on the books, I believe?

Acquired to handle the (by light railway standards) heavy stone traffic from the Criggion branch.

[Tom Burnham]

On 14/02/2024 at 12:36, Wickham Green too said:

The Colonel engineered many other 'light' railways outside his 'own' empire - Hawkhurst and Elham Valley lines come to mind where Wainwright's tender locos were commonplace.

He was resident engineer (under Edward Seaton) for the construction of the Hawkhurst branch.  I wasn't aware that he had any connection with the Elham valley line.

[Tom Burnham]

On 14/02/2024 at 15:26, Nearholmer said:

I’m not sure they sneaked in covertly; they were built for the line, after all.

The story goes that the operating people really liked the 2 Hawthorn Leslie 0-6-2Ts they'd inherited from the PD&SWJR (Callington branch) and wanted the Southern to buy some more, but they were obliged to make do with what could be produced in house...