Peterborough North

[Oldddudders]

 

I have extracted the following from some BR Circulars of 1958. It looks to me as though you are perfectly OK to run Blue Spots in 1958.

 

 

Not so much Blue Spot as Pure Gold. Brilliant research!

[gresley]

Hello Gillbert

 

I have extracted the following from some BR Circulars of 1958. It looks to me as though you are perfectly OK to run Blue Spots in 1958.

 

Brian

 

4 Jan 1958       

Fish Vans E87000-E87274 urgently required by C&WE, Doncaster for equipping with roller bearing axleboxes and lettering “To work between Aberdeen and King’s Cross only”.

 

15 Mar  1958

Fish Vans E87000 to 87274 not bearing the Blue Spot identification are still required at Doncaster

 

2 Aug 1958

Aberdeen – London Fish Vans still sought:

E87086, E87114, E87131, E87161, E87179.

 

23 Aug 1958

Aberdeen-London Fish Trains. E87179 still sought by C&WE Doncaster.

I believe that the Insulated Fish Vans were not actually fitted with roller bearings until 1959/60.

 

gresley

[BMacdermott]

Hello Gresley

 

I’d be interested to hear why you think that.

 

The Railway Observer of February 1958 carried the following report (pp47-48):

 

Blue Spot Fish Special

Commencing on 20^th January, the 12.30pm Aberdeen to King’s Cross inaugurated under this name the use of the first of 275 fish vans which are being fitted with roller bearing axle boxes for use on express fish trains. Each van so fitted has a distinctive circle in blue, fifteen inches in diameter, on a white background on each side. Those who travel on the GN main line will in future suffer only the smell of fish when passed by one of the Aberdeen fish trains; no longer should there be the combination of burning axle box or delays due to stoppages when nearing the end of the 523-mile run.

 

And in his book The Eastern Since 1948, G Freeman Allen wrote (p.130):

 

One rail traffic of the ER’s which the 1955 strike condemned to a slow death was fish. In 1957-8 BR tried to staunch the drain of the Scottish business by fitting roller bearings to 275 postwar, brake-fitted fish vans so as to eradicate the hot box delays prevalent on the overnight trains from Northeast Scotland to the south. The publicity departments were mobilised to promote the 12.30 Aberdeen-King’s Cross as the ‘Blue Spot Special’, playing on the blue circle which was then the identification mark of roller bearing-fitted vehicles, but by then they were already shouting into the wind.

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

Hello again, Gresley.

 

In his book, King's Cross Lineside, 1958-1984, David Percival wrote (p.68):

 

In order to improve deliveries from the last-mentioned port, roller bearing axleboxes were fitted to a batch of the most modern vans in the late 1950s. Known as 'blue spots', from their prominent identification marking, the vans were rostered at the beginning of 1958 to the 12.30pm from Aberdeen and the return 'empties' from King's Cross at 11.40am.

 

I will be speaking with David in the next few days and will check this with him.

 

Brian

[64B]

Hi Gilbert

 

I have a video clip of the potato shed at Kings Cross, showing the unloading of the sacks of spuds, and the 13 ton open wagons being shunted by capstan. Trouble is I cannot remember which one it is on and owing to my technophobia cannot work out how to connect and get working our old VHS machine with SWMBO new telly system to find out. Anyone out there got the same video and knows which one it is on?

 

As for fruit trains, were there no workings from East Anglia to the Midlands or the north which would have been routed via Peterborough?

The video is ECML part one - Kings Cross - Transport Video Publishing

 

 

Edited October 6, 2013 by 64B

[Clive Mortimore]

The video is ECML part one - Kings Cross - Transport Video Publishing

 

 

Cheers for that, now to spend the rest of the day working out how to set up the VHS machine.

[great northern]

Hello again, Gresley.

 

In his book, King's Cross Lineside, 1958-1984, David Percival wrote (p.68):

 

In order to improve deliveries from the last-mentioned port, roller bearing axleboxes were fitted to a batch of the most modern vans in the late 1950s. Known as 'blue spots', from their prominent identification marking, the vans were rostered at the beginning of 1958 to the 12.30pm from Aberdeen and the return 'empties' from King's Cross at 11.40am.

 

I will be speaking with David in the next few days and will check this with him.

 

Brian

Brian, many thanks indeed for that brilliant research, which removes all doubt as far as I'm concerned. As usual though, other factors which I hadn't considered now come into play. In my usual vague way, I had planned " a fish train". The Aberdeen train hadn't come into my calculations, as on my 1956 Goods WTT the Up train was shown as coming through Peterborough soon after midnight which is well outside my sequence, and the Down empties are for some reason not shown at all. You don't happen to have the reporting number do you?

 

Anyway, the Down train must have come through PN some time in the afternoon, and so should be included. That needs a very high proportion of blue spot vans by August 1958. That in turn does away with the idea that "one train fits all" as the Hull and Grimsby workings would not so far as I can see have had blue spot vans, so another train and more cassettes are needed.   Add on the fact that Tim tells me that few of the vans Bachmann are doing would still have been in service in '58, and things as usual become more problematic, as I was relying on those as a cheap and quick way of making up the train.

 

To return to my 1956 WTT for a moment, I've noticed that it also shows Up meat trains from Aberdeen, but no corresponding empty workings. I'm wondering if the empties just went back in one of the Down Niddrie Class C's and were then sent on to Aberdeen, or if there is some reason for the fish empties and these not being in my WTT?

 

Cheers for that, now to spend the rest of the day working out how to set up the VHS machine.

Me too Clive.

[gresley]

Hello again, Gresley.

 

In his book, King's Cross Lineside, 1958-1984, David Percival wrote (p.68):

 

In order to improve deliveries from the last-mentioned port, roller bearing axleboxes were fitted to a batch of the most modern vans in the late 1950s. Known as 'blue spots', from their prominent identification marking, the vans were rostered at the beginning of 1958 to the 12.30pm from Aberdeen and the return 'empties' from King's Cross at 11.40am.

 

I will be speaking with David in the next few days and will check this with him.

 

Brian

Hello Brian,

 

Apologies.   I stand corrected.   My source was a publication, NOT a BR pamphlet, and it states that the roller bearing fitted vans were put into service in 1959/60, on the Aberdeen - King's Cross fish trains specifically,  there being 3 sets which worked in a "merry go round" system.

 

gresley

[The Stationmaster]

Brian, many thanks indeed for that brilliant research, which removes all doubt as far as I'm concerned. As usual though, other factors which I hadn't considered now come into play. In my usual vague way, I had planned " a fish train". The Aberdeen train hadn't come into my calculations, as on my 1956 Goods WTT the Up train was shown as coming through Peterborough soon after midnight which is well outside my sequence, and the Down empties are for some reason not shown at all. You don't happen to have the reporting number do you?

 

Anyway, the Down train must have come through PN some time in the afternoon, and so should be included. That needs a very high proportion of blue spot vans by August 1958. That in turn does away with the idea that "one train fits all" as the Hull and Grimsby workings would not so far as I can see have had blue spot vans, so another train and more cassettes are needed.   Add on the fact that Tim tells me that few of the vans Bachmann are doing would still have been in service in '58, and things as usual become more problematic, as I was relying on those as a cheap and quick way of making up the train.

 

To return to my 1956 WTT for a moment, I've noticed that it also shows Up meat trains from Aberdeen, but no corresponding empty workings. I'm wondering if the empties just went back in one of the Down Niddrie Class C's and were then sent on to Aberdeen, or if there is some reason for the fish empties and these not being in my WTT?

 

Me too Clive.

I can recall empties coming through Riccall (between Selby & York) in the evening but I'm not at all sure from all those years ago if they were a block train or marshalled into something else.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Gilbert

 

I don't have a WTT for 1958, but Peter Coster in his book The Book of the Great Northern (p.154) mentions an 11.30am empties (as opposed to 11.40am), and says the reporting number was No.264 Down.

 

I'll see if David Percival can confirm.

 

Although I haven’t seen it myself (so cannot say whether it will help you) BRM December 2000 carried an article entitled Evolution of the BR Blue Spot Fish Vans.

 

(Note to Gresley: Many thanks for coming back. Appreciated.)

 

Incidentally, I have trawled through many books, but haven’t yet come up with any distinct Blue Spot trains. I’m pretty certain there is a photo possibly of Hatfield showing a couple of Blue Spot branded vans in the yard.

 

Brian

[jrg1]

Can anyone enlighten me on the Grimsby fish trains?

[BMacdermott]

G. Freeman Allen wrote a 2-part article entitled Day Trip to Grimsby which might help. Part one was pp239-242 in Trains Illustrated May 1958. Part two followed in the June issue on pp.314-318.

 

Brian

Edited October 6, 2013 by BMacdermott

[BMacdermott]

Hello Brian,

 

Apologies.   I stand corrected.   My source was a publication, NOT a BR pamphlet, and it states that the roller bearing fitted vans were put into service in 1959/60, on the Aberdeen - King's Cross fish trains specifically,  there being 3 sets which worked in a "merry go round" system.

 

gresley

 

Hello Gresley

 

I wonder if the article was referring to the batch built in 1959 that had roller bearings from new?

 

Brian

[BR(W)]

Hello, GN, all.

You won't forget to provide roller-bearing-fitted brake vans to go with the 'Blue Spots', will you. Something I'd have probably overlooked. What's more, these may well have been dedicated to this prestigious, long distance flow (perhaps with a special inspection and maintenance regime), so I wonder if they were branded accordingly? After all, there's no point in having improved the reliability of the revenue vehicles only to have the brake vans' axleboxes bursting into flames!

I've read an article about the Aberdeen-KX 'Blue Spot' workings (dep. just after midday, Deeside, arr. in the small hours, KX with a relief if required) which mentions that in the early 60s, vans (typically two, I recall) were marshalled behind the brake van for dropping off at 'Mac Fisheries' at Finsbury Park. Was this also the case in 1958, and, as pathing was tight, would the empties simply have been tacked on to the northbound service in a similar fashion? There was, I believe, an engine and/or crew change at Grantham (and at Doncaster, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Dundee, I think).

Other Aberdeen fish traffic was shown as being containerised in 1963 - seemingly standard, 'BD' types on Conflats which may have usurped the traditional, dedicated wagons.

I hope some of this has been at least interesting, if not useful.

Cheers,

BR(W).

[gresley]

Hello Gresley

 

I wonder if the article was referring to the batch built in 1959 that had roller bearings from new?

 

Brian

Hi Brian and BR(W),

 

Regarding Brake vans fitted with roller bearings.   There is a picture of Brake Van No B954874 (page 46 of British Railway Wagons  No 5 by G. Gamble).   The caption states " was built to diagram 1/507, lot 327, at Darlington works in 1959. It has roller bearings and hydraulic buffers."   Alas, there is no mention of its use.

 

gresley

[jrg1]

Very interesting what is being discussed.  As an aside, the Grimsby-Banbury Fish Trains ran past the street where I lived, and would include a number of brake vans in the train-I assumed for dropping off at various points along the way.  Additionally, we would see DMUs regularly towing a van-anyone have any recollection of this happening on the East Lincs line, and therefore seen at Peterborough?  Empties would be returned to Grimsby the next morning.

[great northern]

Very interesting what is being discussed.  As an aside, the Grimsby-Banbury Fish Trains ran past the street where I lived, and would include a number of brake vans in the train-I assumed for dropping off at various points along the way.  Additionally, we would see DMUs regularly towing a van-anyone have any recollection of this happening on the East Lincs line, and therefore seen at Peterborough?  Empties would be returned to Grimsby the next morning.

Very interesting , yes, but its turning into another minefield.   Brake vans with roller bearings? Makes perfect sense when you think about it I suppose. I've seen photos of DMU's with a van in tow, at Lincoln as well as on the E.Lincs, though I can't recall seeing them myself, as we were too busy looking at steam locos.   Things coming down the E.Lincs could have finished up either at Peterborough or Whitemoor of course, and vans could have been detached at Boston from a Peterborough bound DMU. I doubt we shall ever know the full facts. (Says he, hoping someone will now come along and prove him wrong).

 

And how about this bit of information just to confuse things still further. From HMRS Journal Vol 21.1. Apparently on 7th July 1958 the 0730 Grantham -KX  -quite a prestigious Class A working by the way - was augmented with two fish vans and a container on a conflat also containing fish, stated to have originated from Aberdeen! However does that come about? Have they been taken off the dedicated train for some reason, and put on the back of this train to complete their journey? And why a conflat if by this time this was a blue spot train?

[The Stationmaster]

Very interesting , yes, but its turning into another minefield.   Brake vans with roller bearings? Makes perfect sense when you think about it I suppose. I've seen photos of DMU's with a van in tow, at Lincoln as well as on the E.Lincs, though I can't recall seeing them myself, as we were too busy looking at steam locos.   Things coming down the E.Lincs could have finished up either at Peterborough or Whitemoor of course, and vans could have been detached at Boston from a Peterborough bound DMU. I doubt we shall ever know the full facts. (Says he, hoping someone will now come along and prove him wrong).

 

And how about this bit of information just to confuse things still further. From HMRS Journal Vol 21.1. Apparently on 7th July 1958 the 0730 Grantham -KX  -quite a prestigious Class A working by the way - was augmented with two fish vans and a container on a conflat also containing fish, stated to have originated from Aberdeen! However does that come about? Have they been taken off the dedicated train for some reason, and put on the back of this train to complete their journey? And why a conflat if by this time this was a blue spot train?

Possibly detached for some sort of C&W attention and forwarded first available?

[stewartingram]

Hailing from Cambridge, and sometimes trainspotting at Peterborough North, I certainly do remember dmus with vans. I'd like to think, if my memory is right, that Peterborough was more common than anywhere else on my patch, but can't be certain on that. Amongst my thousands of photos (not all mine!) I'm sure I've had pictures, if I find any I'll let you know.

Different topic, but the late Teddy Boston, of Toby the Tram fame, often quoted at his slide shows, that the Peterborough North-Peterborough East trains were the slowest in the BR timetable, ever heard that?

 

Stewart

[Oldddudders]

The brake van bearing issue is interesting - but I suggest there is an important difference between the brake and every other vehicle in the train. Every mile of its life the brake weighs the same - plus/minus a stone or two if Old Fatty is the guard today. Other vehicles have their gross weight increased by substantial factors on - ideally - alternate trips. I suspect that induces greater wear rates in the journal bearings.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Oldddudders

[great northern]

Hello Gilbert

 

I don't have a WTT for 1958, but Peter Coster in his book The Book of the Great Northern (p.154) mentions an 11.30am empties (as opposed to 11.40am), and says the reporting number was No.264 Down.

 

I'll see if David Percival can confirm.

 

Although I haven’t seen it myself (so cannot say whether it will help you) BRM December 2000 carried an article entitled Evolution of the BR Blue Spot Fish Vans.

 

(Note to Gresley: Many thanks for coming back. Appreciated.)

 

Incidentally, I have trawled through many books, but haven’t yet come up with any distinct Blue Spot trains. I’m pretty certain there is a photo possibly of Hatfield showing a couple of Blue Spot branded vans in the yard.

 

Brian

I've had a look at that photo Brian, and Peter's caption says that 264 Down was introduced to return empty blue spots back North. He also says though that the photo, one of his own, was taken in early 1957. That is surely before the introduction of the blue spot vans?  The loco is a V2, early crest, and appears still to be black, which does suggest that 1957 may be correct. I can only see one van that looks like it may be a blue spot too!

 

264 Down is definitely not in my 1956 WTT, though that may be because it was introduced later than that.

[jrg1]

Possibly detached for some sort of C&W attention and forwarded first available?

I thought the single vans attached to DMUs were ad hoc-as required if say, the fish trains were full.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Gilbert

 

Sorry, I should have made it clearer that I was posting the reference purely in respect of the reporting number in the caption - not the photo or the actual train in it.

 

In respect of the vans and Conflat: E87236 could well have been Blue Spot by then (with roller bearings) but E75137 is one of the earlier batches that remained oil box. The Conflat theoretically should have had roller bearings, but a Don Rowland photo shows one without (although that was probably a 'rogue').

 

Brian

[LNER4479]

The Aberdeen train hadn't come into my calculations, as on my 1956 Goods WTT the Up train was shown as coming through Peterborough soon after midnight which is well outside my sequence, and the Down empties are for some reason not shown at all.

 

To return to my 1956 WTT for a moment, I've noticed that it also shows Up meat trains from Aberdeen, but no corresponding empty workings. I'm wondering if the empties just went back in one of the Down Niddrie Class C's and were then sent on to Aberdeen, or if there is some reason for the fish empties and these not being in my WTT?

 

Now that is really interesting GN. In my research for the pre-war ECML freight workings, the Up Aberdeen fish is shown (with a note to say that it took precedence over everything other than Express Passenger trains!) - but once again there is no corresponding northbound empties working shown! Most strange - you would have thought that getting the empties back was equally as important (although perhaps the ultimate speed wasn't quite as important, or had to be slower as they were empty?). I am aware however, that use was sometimes made of the GC route for the southern leg of long distance traffic (ie a working would use the ECML in one direction but the GC in the other).

 

If it helps (bearing in mind some workings didn't alter for years) the 1938 timetable shows Aberdeen Meat empties working north from KX at 8.0am.

(thanks to 2750 for unintended loan of his 1938 WTT info!)

[great northern]

Hailing from Cambridge, and sometimes trainspotting at Peterborough North, I certainly do remember dmus with vans. I'd like to think, if my memory is right, that Peterborough was more common than anywhere else on my patch, but can't be certain on that. Amongst my thousands of photos (not all mine!) I'm sure I've had pictures, if I find any I'll let you know.

Different topic, but the late Teddy Boston, of Toby the Tram fame, often quoted at his slide shows, that the Peterborough North-Peterborough East trains were the slowest in the BR timetable, ever heard that?

 

Stewart

 They were allowed 5 minutes in the WTT for a journey of about a mile Stewart. I suppose it might be a struggle to find another passenger service which averaged 12 mph. Having said that, the engine would hardly have had a chance to get going before it had to slow down again, especially if it was held at Crescent Junction waiting for a path on the main line, which I bet happened as often as not.