Ballasting turned my track yellow…

[Benatkinsonuk]

I found a few old closed forums with similar issues but no real answer as to why, the assumption is the particular PVA I’m using is giving off fumes that are oxidising. However….

 

Indoor layout in a spare room, I starting ballasting new Peco code 55 finesale track with DCC concepts ballast, hobbycraft craft PVA glue and a few drops (too much?) of clear washing up liquid (the only clear I could find was a sensitive skin one). I wetted the ballast with a fine spray of tap water (very hard water area - won’t help I assume) which also had a drop of washing up liquid in.

 

The track started to show water marks quickly and turn yellow within a few hours. Notice just how yellow it has gone compared to the non ballasted track, which is very nearby. So probably not just the fumes?? Actual contact with the glue and / or something else that is making this happen?
 

This oxidisation does come off when cleaned (I used the daily use woodland scenic cleaning pad) and cotton buds with WD40 contact cleaner - although came back a day later, the track had yellowed again, the ballast was still damp.

 

48 hours on - I’ve cleaned now the ballast is rock hard and the locos run very nicely. Hope that’s the end of it now it’s dried!?? Surely it can’t keep turning yellow forever 😅
 

But before I ballast more track, is there something I should try changing? Ideally I would have quite so much rubbish on the track for days after. 

[peterm1]

The same thing happened when I ballasted my track. Nothing to worry about. I used the DCC Concepts method of ballasting which uses Meth's rather than detergent to spray and mix the pva with.

[Benatkinsonuk]

Ok thank you. I notice it must be to do with moisture, the around in this photo was topped up with glue mixture more recently and the track has turned yellow within an hour. Other drier areas are still clean. 
 

Did the meths method help avoid this issue?

 

thanks 

Edited February 16 by Benatkinsonuk

[fulton]

My experience is that the PVA effect, can persist for a few months, maybe down to where the layout normally lives, in my case unheated garage and shed, the up side is that it encourages me to use my polishing block (from the EM society) more often, resulting in a nice smooth polished rail head. (This is my view, others may have very strong alternative views on rail cleaning)

[John Tomlinson]

Pretty sure this happened to me with my Peco code 75 and Woodland Scenics ballast/ PVA - it was however some time ago.

 

It really isn't a problem. I too used a polishing block a few times to get a nice shine, now I just need a wipe with a rag impregnated with Slaters Track and Mechanism Cleaner to remove any oil or grease, from time to time. Use the polishing block along the direction of the track, not across, to avoid scratching, and obviously don't overdo the pressure.

 

John.

[Benatkinsonuk]

Thanks for your replies 

[Pete the Elaner]

Maybe you could consider an alternative to PVA?

 

Many consider it the 'tried & tested' product for ballasting, but it is a resin wood glue. It is great for gluing wood together, but fixing ballast requires different properties, so why assume it is good for this too?

A resin is a poor product for fixing ballast & PVA reacts with some ballast, leaving it slightly green.

 

[5050]

I've used 'Klear' for ballasting lately and it works fine, dries clear and is easy to apply with an eye-dropper.

[RobinofLoxley]

17 hours ago, 5050 said:

I've used 'Klear' for ballasting lately and it works fine, dries clear and is easy to apply with an eye-dropper.

Have you got a link for that? I cant find it on a Search.

 

Johnson's ?

Edited February 17 by RobinofLoxley

[Benatkinsonuk]

21 hours ago, RobinofLoxley said:

Have you got a link for that? I cant find it on a Search.

 

Johnson's ?

I was going to ask the same thing. 

[wasdavetheroad]

Johnsons Klear was discontinued some time ago but there MAY be alternatives such as Pledge Multisurface Floor Polish? There is a lot of discussion online about an alternative

[YT-1300]

2 hours ago, wasdavetheroad said:

Johnsons Klear was discontinued some time ago but there MAY be alternatives such as Pledge Multisurface Floor Polish? There is a lot of discussion online about an alternative

This... is the latest version of it.

 

Comes out milky but dries completely clear

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The yellow compound is almostcertainly a nickel salt. One or more of the liquids in the ballasting process must be fairly acidic, and it won't be the hard water, top suspect the PVA. I'd experiment to find a PVA that doesn't cause this effect.

 

Nickel salts are water soluble and can sensitise the skin long term leading to 'nickel itch'. Individual sensitivity is very variable, some will be completely unaffected despite regular exposure, others very readily. Once sensitised the last opinion I heard (40 years ago) was that it lasts indefinitely and will flare up when in contact with nickel in alloys and as plating. Could be quite an inconvenience considering the general use of nickel in model railway product. (The common complaint back in the day was inability to wear jeans in skin contact due to the nickel plated studs.)

 

 

[Benatkinsonuk]

3 hours ago, YT-1300 said:

This... is the latest version of it.

 

Comes out milky but dries completely clear

And would you mix this 50/50 with water as you would with PVA? 

[YT-1300]

5 minutes ago, Benatkinsonuk said:

And would you mix this 50/50 with water as you would with PVA? 

No need to dilute it or add anything to improve flow, I don't use it for ballast but for scenics

[H2O]

On 16/02/2024 at 14:13, Pete the Elaner said:

Maybe you could consider an alternative to PVA?

 

Many consider it the 'tried & tested' product for ballasting, but it is a resin wood glue. It is great for gluing wood together, but fixing ballast requires different properties, so why assume it is good for this too?

A resin is a poor product for fixing ballast & PVA reacts with some ballast, leaving it slightly green.

 

I've heard Copydex as an alternative, stays soft so may be lower noise and can be reworked, however need to contend with fish smell too!  Sadly I can't help too much as this is only what I've heard or read, no experience of it my self.

[MartynJPearson]

I'd suspect the PVA too. I use it to fix down cork underlay and track, then weight the track down. The track takes on a yellow tinge, particularly where I've weight it down with cans where I guess the fumes haven't been able to escape. Does go with a track clean and once the PVA is dry, I don't see it coming back.

[wasdavetheroad]

5 hours ago, H2O said:

I've heard Copydex as an alternative, stays soft so may be lower noise and can be reworked, however need to contend with fish smell too!  Sadly I can't help too much as this is only what I've heard or read, no experience of it my self.

In my experience copydex will eventually become  translucent light brown rather than clear

[dasatcopthorne]

I once had granite ballast turn green after the PVA application.

 

I now use water based matt varnish 60/40 with water and a squirt of IPA.

Wet (mist) the ballast first with water and IPA.

 

Dave.

[Pete the Elaner]

17 hours ago, H2O said:

I've heard Copydex as an alternative, stays soft so may be lower noise and can be reworked, however need to contend with fish smell too!  Sadly I can't help too much as this is only what I've heard or read, no experience of it my self.

 

You have made a key point: Never try anything new on a layout. Try it on an off-cut first.

 

I have used Copydex. It is indeed a bit smelly but this does not last very long at all. It has several advantages over PVA:

 

It dries slightly flexible, which has several advantages:

   There is less tendency for ballast to flake away when you move boards.

   Once dry, you can cut any unwanted bits away with a scalpel.

   When you cut the ballast at a board join, it produces a lot neater join than with PVA.

   It allows for a lot quieter running than with PVA (but still noisier than having no ballast at all).

   It does not turn ballast green.

   It dries faster.

It also had disadvantages:

   It is more expensive than PVA

   It dries very slightly brown, although it taints the colour a lot less than PVA does. Brake dust is brown though.

   It can wrap itself around a drill bit, which can be relevant if you install gradient posts, signals, OLE at a later date.

   Smell.

 

I do not claim it is perfect & I am sure there are more suitable products out there. PVA is certainly not one of them though.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

23 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I do not claim it (Copydex) is perfect & I am sure there are more suitable products out there. PVA is certainly not one of them though.

Copydex has been the sole alternative in the 20 odd years since I have been interested in 'better than PVA' for the purpose. Scarier to apply as it looks like an industrial waste spill, but otherwise all to like.

 

For completeness, PVA was the 'better than Cascamite' option.

[dasatcopthorne]

2 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Copydex has been the sole alternative in the 20 odd years since I have been interested in 'better than PVA' for the purpose. Scarier to apply as it looks like an industrial waste spill, but otherwise all to like.

 

For completeness, PVA was the 'better than Cascamite' option.

 

I've been using matt varnish for 10 years now. 

 

Dave. 

[Barry O]

Never seen this and I have used a PVA/water mix for  many a year.

 

I add some fairy liquid.. no colouration.. so far.

 

I do "wet" the ballast surface with a water/IPA mix..

 

What sort of water do you use? It could be that?

 

Baz

[br2975]

18 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

I once had granite ballast turn green after the PVA application.

 

I now use water based matt varnish 60/40 with water and a squirt of IPA.

Wet (mist) the ballast first with water and IPA.

 

.

I recently misted my trackwork with diluted IPA prior to ballasting, using diluted PVA dribbled on with a hypodermic syringe

.

It stained my sleepers with a white effect.

.

The trackwork was Peco Code 75, sprayed first a dark brown.

.

I then reverted to using a "wet water" mix of water & washing up liquid to mist over first, and the white staining was no longer an issue.

Edited February 19 by br2975

[dasatcopthorne]

I always mist my ballast with water and few drops of IPA.

 

Never put IPA in a PVA mix as it can turn 'gloopy' in my experience.

 

Dave.