Can this picture be dated

[MartinRS]

27 minutes ago, LBRJ said:

Having had a look at it in zoomed in on big screen I am going to suggest that it is  pretty immediately post war, say up to about  1946/47.

That is nothing to do with trains or cars or rationing or whatever, it is just that the overall look of the people says late 40s to me - It is certainly not the early 30s, if that is the other likely option.

I think we have established a pre-1940 date due to the absence of the pillbox.

Looking at the petrol tank detail is that a 1930 Triumph NSD motorcycle bottom left? See https://c8.alamy.com/comp/FB2N0P/1930-triumph-nsd-motorcycle-classic-british-motorcycle-at-the-vmcc-FB2N0P.jpg

[MartinRS]

8 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Hi all, i am looking to roughly date the attached picture. This is Blue Anchor on the Minehead branch.

There is a pre-Worboys level crossing sign - i think these were standardised in 1934 but had been around before then.

The prairie tank appears to have GWR on the tank sides, though it is very indistinct and i might be seeing a new BR logo.

There are no camping coaches in the siding - they were withdrawn in 1939 and didn't resume here until 1952. They had been first located there in 1934, so the period 1934 to 1939 and post 1952 are ruled out.

The number of cars suggests that this isn't during war-time petrol rationing.

During the war, a pillbox was built on the sea front which i believe would have been visible in this picture, so that suggests pre-war. The beach huts appeared in 1927.

The leading and rear coaches are clerestories.

All this is conflicting. If its pre-war, then it has to be between 1927 and 1934.

If its post war, then its between 1945 and 1952.

I know nothing about old cars, there may be some evidence there.

All detective comments welcomed!

Ian

Do you have an original paper copy of the image, and if so can you scan it again at a higher resolution?

 

Do you have any information about the history of the photograph such as the name of the photographer and when they were active?

[Wickham Green too]

8 hours ago, ikcdab said:

... The beach huts appeared in 1927. ...

I know nothing about GWR locos apart from the fact that they all look the same - but If that's a 4575 they also first appeared in 1927 .... which proves nothing at all. Was there, though, an allocated in this area ( presumably Taunton ) throughout the period in question or might there have been times of absence ?

[Jeremy Cumberland]

 

29 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

I think we have established a pre-1940 date due to the absence of the pillbox.

Looking at the petrol tank detail is that a 1930 Triumph NSD motorcycle bottom left? See https://c8.alamy.com/comp/FB2N0P/1930-triumph-nsd-motorcycle-classic-british-motorcycle-at-the-vmcc-FB2N0P.jpg

I wondered if anyone could identfiy the motorcycle combination. I'm no good with the various conventional cars, but the one right at the front by the crossing appears to be a Morgan 3-wheeler. The spare wheel on the back places it no earlier than 1933. My guess is that it is an F-type. However, this hardly seemed worth mentioning because other features appeared to point to a later date anyway.

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

I know nothing about GWR locos apart from the fact that they all look the same - but If that's a 4575 they also first appeared in 1927 .... which proves nothing at all. Was there, though, an allocated in this area ( presumably Taunton ) throughout the period in question or might there have been times of absence ?

I don't know about gaps but three went there from new. Websites don't give much information.

[Paul H Vigor]

2 hours ago, LBRJ said:

Having had a look at it in zoomed in on big screen I am going to suggest that it is  pretty immediately post war, say up to about  1946/47.

That is nothing to do with trains or cars or rationing or whatever, it is just that the overall look of the people says late 40s to me - It is certainly not the early 30s, if that is the other likely option.

A little detail that bothers me a little bit: where is the signal box? At Blue Anchor the signal box is located very close to the level crossing. Is the box missing, or should I go to Specsavers?? 😎

[Paul H Vigor]

5 hours ago, ikcdab said:

Hi Jason, so you can see my conumdrum.

It definatley is not our sleeping car. I have had this picture for many years, certainly before we finished restoring 9038! and there are two clerestories and several other GWR coaches which we don't own!

I really can't believe its a faked picture. I've had it far too long - my ownership predates photoshop and it would be a very clever photoartist who could manipulate that manually!

so it remains a conumdrum.  I am pretty certain its pre-war because of the lack of the pillbox.

I don't know what time of year the camping coaches were despatched from Swindon to their locations, so maybe its (say) 1935 May bank holiday and the coaches have not yet arrived for the season!

 

The car in front of the locomotive seems to be equipped with a white panel on its rear (centre of the spare wheel?). Might this white panel releate to driving in the wartime blackout?

[TheSignalEngineer]

21 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

The car in front of the locomotive seems to be equipped with a white panel on its rear (centre of the spare wheel?). Might this white panel releate to driving in the wartime blackout?

Centre of the spare wheel cover. See 2nd car from right on here

https://www.francisfrith.com/blue-anchor/blue-anchor-sands-c1939_b124004

[Paul H Vigor]

10 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Centre of the spare wheel cover. See 2nd car from right on here

https://www.francisfrith.com/blue-anchor/blue-anchor-sands-c1939_b124004

Polished chrome, not as white??

[phil_sutters]

4 hours ago, LBRJ said:

Having had a look at it in zoomed in on big screen I am going to suggest that it is  pretty immediately post war, say up to about  1946/47.

That is nothing to do with trains or cars or rationing or whatever, it is just that the overall look of the people says late 40s to me - It is certainly not the early 30s, if that is the other likely option.

Most of the clothing could be either side of WW2, but the person, who I think is an ice-cream vendor, down towards the level-crossing, is wearing a long white overall or dress, which I think would place the date before the war. By the later 1930s the wearing of hats was in decline, except for the older generation, especially when in holiday mode. So I cannot see why any of the people look more 40s rather than 30s. Here is my mum, her future sister-in-law and a friend in 1939 at the seaside.

I think that the lack of the pill-box is a significant pointer to it being prewar.

Regarding the camping coaches - I wonder if the clerestory at the far end of the train is actually part of it and could be a camping coach. It seems a bit out of line with the neighbouring coach. That may just be the difference between the two designs of coach.

Edited February 22 by phil_sutters

[TheSignalEngineer]

23 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Polished chrome, not as white??

Depends upon the light, film type and exposure and how good the darkroom technique is. On monochrome I could get it to look anything from white to dark grey depending on the angle of the original and what it was reflecting.

This is the back of a Vauxhall Standard 12-Four from the 1938 brochure.

[ikcdab]

1 hour ago, Paul H Vigor said:

A little detail that bothers me a little bit: where is the signal box? At Blue Anchor the signal box is located very close to the level crossing. Is the box missing, or should I go to Specsavers?? 😎

The signalbox is just out of shot to the left. The garden just behind the road sign runs up to the signalbox and the rear of the station building. When i first started at Blue Anchor there was a little shop there called the Floradena stores, again just out of shot to the left.

[ikcdab]

9 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

Regarding the camping coaches - I wonder if the clerestory at the far end of the train is actually part of it and could be a camping coach. It seems a bit out of line with the neighbouring coach. That may just be the difference between the two designs of coach.

Thats actually an interesting point, but the up home signal visible here stands at the toe of the yard points where the camping coach stood. So the rear coach is far too far away to to be it. in actual fact, the camping coaches were almost up as far as the crossing, lessening the distance the happy campers had to walk to use the station toilets.

[TheSignalEngineer]

There's a lot of compression on the original photo. I will have a look on Google Earth tomorrow to decide where it was likely taken from.

[DCB]

2 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

The car in front of the locomotive seems to be equipped with a white panel on its rear (centre of the spare wheel?). Might this white panel releate to driving in the wartime blackout?

The white panels, whitewash often the edges of car mudguards, The rear of cycle and motor cycle mudguards  was a safety measure in the blackout.   The 4th car from the bike Left bottom also has a white patch so post war.  BUT what is the first coach, its very long.   The clerestory front doesn't look to match the rear. may  be an optical illusion but it looks too long for a 70 footer and bent in the middle so I think its probably a composite photo cobbled up for advertising , probably to get rid of the pillbox.

[MartinRS]

32 minutes ago, DCB said:

BUT what is the first coach, its very long.   The clerestory front doesn't look to match the rear. may  be an optical illusion but it looks too long for a 70 footer and bent in the middle so I think its probably a composite photo cobbled up for advertising , probably to get rid of the pillbox.

BUT what is the first coach, its very long.   The clerestory front doesn't look to match the rear. That's because you have mistaken two coaches for one coach!

 

may  be an optical illusion but it looks too long for a 70 footer and bent in the middle so I think its probably a composite photo cobbled up for advertising , probably to get rid of the pillbox. Bent in the middle? I have carried out the simple action of putting a straight edge along the lower edge of the roof line and have found it is not 'bent in the middle'. In any event a lens can distort an image eg pincushion distortion or barrel distortion.

 

Can we please concentrate on what is actually shown (or is absent) in the photograph and put an end to speculation about photo-manipulation?

[DCB]

10 hours ago, MartinRS said:

BUT what is the first coach, its very long.   The clerestory front doesn't look to match the rear. That's because you have mistaken two coaches for one coach!

 

may  be an optical illusion but it looks too long for a 70 footer and bent in the middle so I think its probably a composite photo cobbled up for advertising , probably to get rid of the pillbox. Bent in the middle? I have carried out the simple action of putting a straight edge along the lower edge of the roof line and have found it is not 'bent in the middle'. In any event a lens can distort an image eg pincushion distortion or barrel distortion.

 

Can we please concentrate on what is actually shown (or is absent) in the photograph and put an end to speculation about photo-manipulation?

It has no Pillbox so that dates it to before the pill box was built and black out patches on the cars so after 1st September 1939 when the Blackout was announced so it's most likely  September 1939 if it's genuine.  Probably Saturday 2nd September before the train services were curtailed  following declaration of war on the 3rd September.  Could have been later as petrol rationing took a while to implement....   It's like the famous photo of the Dean Goods and a Warship Diesel at Cogload Junction.

Edited February 22 by DCB

[Jeremy Cumberland]

6 hours ago, DCB said:

BUT what is the first coach, its very long.

I know nothing about GWR coaches, but surely the coach to the right of the building is a different one from the one to the left. The coach on the left has a clerestory and no roof vents that I can see. The coach on the right has a clear row of roof vents and does not look to be a clerestory. I took the coach on the left to be a 4- or 6-wheeler.

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, DCB said:

The white panels, whitewash often the edges of car mudguards, ... The 4th car from the bike Left bottom also has a white patch so post war.  ...

I see no white panels - just reflections  - nor, as I pointed out above, can I see any restricted headlights ...... both features would have been applied / removed at the same time.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I know nothing about GWR coaches, but surely the coach to the right of the building is a different one from the one to the left. The coach on the left has a clerestory and no roof vents that I can see. The coach on the right has a clear row of roof vents and does not look to be a clerestory. I took the coach on the left to be a 4- or 6-wheeler.

You never know with this GWR stuff - if anyone did things differently, it was usually the GWR!

[Paul H Vigor]

4 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

I know nothing about GWR coaches, but surely the coach to the right of the building is a different one from the one to the left. The coach on the left has a clerestory and no roof vents that I can see. The coach on the right has a clear row of roof vents and does not look to be a clerestory. I took the coach on the left to be a 4- or 6-wheeler.

The leading clerestory could indeed be a 4/6w - full brake or brake [van] third?

[Cwmtwrch]

I think the Frith photo is probably correctly dated [the one VRN which can be read at all appears to be from 1935], and may well have been taken the same day, by the same photographer, so I suggest that the year is 1939. The last 4/6 wheel GWR stock was built in 1902; the last with clerestories was built in 1894, so 4/6w stock can probably be ruled out. On that basis I think the photo has been altered, probably at the time of issue rather than more recently. Not only does the leading carriage appear to be far too short, but the roofline of the clerestory is higher than the elliptical roofed coaches. Also, the loco and first coach appear to be at a somewhat different angle to the coaches to the right of the building, and http://www.britishrailholidays.co.uk/ suggests the train should be going behind the pale building, not in front of it.

[Wickham Green too]

19 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

 ... the loco and first coach appear to be at a somewhat different angle to the coaches to the right of the building, ...

Of course they are - the line climbs quite steeply up into the station and inland from near sea level along the coast :  - 

 

4160 ; 21/9/96

 

[melmerby]

21 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Three letters on car reg plates started to come in c1932. 

Correct, the last Birmingham bus with a 2 letter prefix was in 1933, the first with 3 letters was in 1934

[melmerby]

I don't think you can see the signal box because of the view angle.