"L" shaped US Switching layout. 1960-1970 period

[melmerby]

Hi all

I'm about to start an L shaped shelf layout which will be US based and for switching

The long side is 19' 4" and the short side is 11' 6", all boards are 400mm (16" wide) apart from the corner where some infil for the joining curve may be needed.

 

I intend it to be an industrial spur that was once a through route but has been truncated.

The short side will be a fiddle yard of some sort.

I've built up a collection of 40+ US freight cars, most of which are unmodernised boxcars from several roads (all second hand, many are/were kits)

There are a few Gons and flatcars as well.

All the track will be second hand as well (Peco code 100 Insulfrog) recovered from a previous layout, there are over 30 turnouts plus some diamonds and loads of flexi

It will be DCC, probably with block occupancy and dcc controlled turnouts.

 

I'm a bit of a novice with US stuff and wonder what typical businesses could be served in that time period

Also how much track to use without it being cramped?

[fulton]

To me, less is more, try not to fill the space up with track, more sidings does not necessarily mean more car spots, I found the Lance Mindheim books to very helpful, my own layout based on a prototype location serves a pesticide distributors, tank cars, a potato and onion distributors, box cars and reefers, and a timber truss manufacturer, flat cars and centre beams.  I only have four points on the scenic area, serving the three customers, but it still provides plenty of enjoyable switching.

[DCB]

It  depends on whether you want your stock on the layout or in storage
With 40 foot cars you can get 10 into about 6 feet length and at least 6 parallel roads of 6ft lengths so you can either lay lots of track to switch your stock on or have a few tracks and a lot of scenery.

I'd prioritise track, and switch cars, not trip and spot them spurs for loading or unloading, just switch them .  Busy yard full of cars, Urban setting, cars awaiting sorting for onward transit.  

2nd hand Insulfrog and DCC sounds ominous,  Unifrog are designed for this type of application. and most US outline locos have plenty of pick ups to bridge the dead  frogs if run out of the box

I would try to arrange parallel running and simultaneous moves with the DCC for more visual interest. The "Hockey Stick" Traverser concept would fit well with this site.

[NZRedBaron]

Funny enough, I remember seeing a video last year that discussed a topic like this; it was about types of businesses where only having one or two cars serving them is realistic- I can't for the life of me recall the video, but I vaguely recall some of the examples from it- like an LNG plant, or a furniture factory, or a food packing plant.

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi @melmerby, I wonder if I might share a few thoughts?  It might also be worth starting a thread in the USA and Canadian Railroads Forum as well, as some specialist US contributors may not follow this part of the Forum too.

 

My first thought is that the space you have, in particular the lengths of each side, sound ideal for the kind of layout concept you're looking at, and a 16" baseboard width also sounds good to me.  In some of his US track planning writing, the late great Iain Rice wrote about how different width s work for different settings, and I would say 16" offers a good compromise without crowding the room you're in.  It's a great base you have to work from.

 

Above and beyond that, the world (or at least, the North American continent) is yours to explore.  The era you've gone for allows you to mix 40', 50' (the dominant size for the 60s I’d suggest) and some longer cars, and it's OK to use cars with roof boards / walkways, as they were not banned until the early 1970s.  I know from my own second hand purchasing that it means you'll easily find plenty of rolling stock (although 40 cars is a good number to pause at for now).  Everything is diesel, but the 60s is before a lot of the mergers took place that have given us the more consolidated picture we see today.

 

My next thought therefore is to ask what kind of story you want to tell - or, in other words, what's your vision for the layout?  Do you fancy something representing an industrial area on the outskirts of a city, or something more rural?  I'd agree with @fulton that a 'less is more' layout could look fantastic - his own is a great example.  As you mention the concept of a truncated line that approach may fit really well.

 

You could happily spend hours on the internet looking through some amazing resources (no prizes for guessing how I know), and you'll find plenty of encouragement from the likes of Lance Mindheim and Thomas Klimoski.  James McNab's models of the Iowa State are also worth checking out: he has a series on his Hills Line layout made for Model Railroader on YouTube.  For some 'off the scale' modelling, check out Boomer Dioramas.  Two more are John2618 and Red Dirt and Rails (the latter focuses on rural switching).  There are plenty of examples here on RMweb as well of course.

 

One key difference between US outline and UK layouts in similar spaces is that US layouts often do without a Fiddle Yard.  There are several reasons for this, but the key one is that the kind of layout I think you may have in mind would quite likely represent a prototype that only saw one train per day.  All you need is a staging track - make up your train before the ops session starts, and by the time you've switched all the car spots and made up the return train, you could easily find several hours have passed (the point being that specific cars get switched to specific spots for individual rail-served industries).

 

An alternative, to incorporate @DCB's suggestion, which would be another common approach, would be to have a yard along one side of the layout, with industries along the other side.  The yard could represent an interchange, either with another railroad or with a mainline.  Again, load it up with the cars you want for an operating session before you start and there's no need for a non-scenic fiddle yard.

 

In terms of industries, some thoughts: an interchange with an off-scene railroad (any or every type of car could use this), a team track / trans load facility - another easy to model track that just needs space for trucks alongside, perhaps a loading dock.  A generic warehouse for boxcar traffic is another easy win (and easily modelled in low relief).  A fuel distributor for tank car traffic.  Gondolas could carry scrap metal (model lots of junk but all you need for unloading are suitable road vehicles with grab buckets and the like).  Livestock / stock car traffic had all but finished, while covered hoppers (now the primary car type I believe) were still on their way in.  It all depends if you want to model a number of smaller industries, or a few (or just one) larger one that takes a variety of traffic.

 

Those are just a few ideas off the top of my head.  Other things to think about are the type and size of buildings and structures you want, which part of the States (or Canada) you want to represent, what the dominant industries might be (and how generic / specific they are).

 

I know I've happily spent much of the past year playing around with different ideas.  in the end I've gone in a different direction (again, no surprises there for anyone who knows me), but one thing I can be confident of - you won't find any shortage of ideas once you get started.

 

Two quick final thoughts - do get out your freight cars and play around with them - see what looks good, and what looks great; particularly given the size of US models, it's a great way to test ideas (my own recent thread was full of those kind of photos).  And finally, finally, have a look at Tom Johnson's Cass County Railroad on the MRH Forum.  Spend some time looking at his photos and modelling, and you'll never look at the hobby in the same light again! 

 

Hope that all helps more than it confuses, Keith.

 

Edited February 25 by Keith Addenbrooke
(missing paragraph, sorry)

[Schooner]

On 25/02/2024 at 21:10, Keith Addenbrooke said:

An alternative, to incorporate @DCB's suggestion, which would be another common approach, would be to have a yard along one side of the layout, with industries along the other side.  The yard could represent an interchange, either with another railroad or with a mainline.  Again, load it up with the cars you want for an operating session before you start and there's no need for a non-scenic fiddle yard.

 

This!

 

Your space sounds perfect for one of the 'ideal model railway set ups': Interchange line (cassette), feeding a small exchange yard (for marshalling and switching fun), feeding the truncated line (trip and spotting). That's three types of train-playing, potentially requiring three classes of loco...or it could all be achieved by one, depending.

 

Less is more, agreed, but the exchange yard need be no more than three roads; the truncated line need not have any extra sidings at all.

 

That said, I think I'd be looking at maybe a loop with two spurs towards the dead end* and an extra siding or two (perhaps one aesthetic only, overgrown and curving off the front of the layout). These also give some geometry to play with so the running line has a reason to curve behind viewblocks or in front of an scenic focus etc. IIUC it's not unusual for industries along such lines to be served directly from it, not requiring their own individual private sidings.

 

*Personal preference really: running around gives me more of a sense of a there-and-back-again trip (a loco propelling puts me in mind of a shunting move) although it might be less typical.

 

Sounds fun! It's the sort of layout I'd like to have a go at designing for my own interest. If those come to anything would you mind if I posted them here?

[melmerby]

Thanks for the suggestions, plenty to mull over.

[2E Sub Shed]

 

 

If you are looking for inspiration,iff you can find a copy of "Modelling American Short Lines and Industry" Edited by Chris Ellis, (former editor of Model Trains International),  ISBN 978-0-904811-24-7, that gives a description of several American Short Line's operations, and also describes a model based on one of them. Another one published by Chris is "Modelling American Yards and operations"  ISBN 978-0-904811-34-4, both published by Kristall Productions but probably  out of print now.

 

From these descriptions propelling moves over distance were not uncommon.

Edited March 3 by 2E Sub Shed
Spelling !

[F-UnitMad]

On 25/02/2024 at 21:10, Keith Addenbrooke said:

One key difference between US outline and UK layouts in similar spaces is that US layouts often do without a Fiddle Yard. 

I agree with this. The traditional "British Exhibition layout mindset" has hidden sidings as being a 'must have', but is hidden staging really needed for a home layout...? After all, at home who are you trying to kid that a train has arrived from far away, when in reality it's come just a few feet, regardless of if that area is 'hidden' (again, from whom, exactly?) or scenicked.

 

[MrTea]

Hi Keith,

 

It sounds like you've got a great space to work with and lots of potential for your layout.

 

I've been contemplating a US-excursion for a switching layout since before Christmas albeit in N scale after I 'accidentally' acquired a sound-fitted Alco S4 switcher at a price that seemed too good not to.

 

 

In the research for my potential layout I found quite a lot of interesting material on YouTube. As well as Boomer Diorama (https://www.youtube.com/@boomerdioramas) that @Keith Addenbrooke mention's above I found the South Down Switching Layout (https://www.youtube.com/@SouthDown) had some quite interesting videos on the topic. There's also some great material on James Hilton's Blog, especially in the Beaverbrook section: https://paxton-road.blogspot.com/search/label/beaverbrook

 

Keep us posted on your progress! 

 

Ian

Edited March 4 by MrTea
Added image

[Flying Pig]

20 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

I agree with this. The traditional "British Exhibition layout mindset" has hidden sidings as being a 'must have', but is hidden staging really needed for a home layout...? After all, at home who are you trying to kid that a train has arrived from far away, when in reality it's come just a few feet, regardless of if that area is 'hidden' (again, from whom, exactly?) or scenicked.

 

 

 

I was going to agree with you, but I had a think about it and actually, if you are building for the very small spaces that are available to many British modellers, then "offstage" really does increase operational potential considerably.  Otherwise you are really limited to shunting.  If you have more space, as here, then you have more options.

 

 

[melmerby]

| havent got any baseboards yet as I am still putting up the shelf brackets.

It's slow work as I have to remove everything off my main layout which is underneath, so that I can kneel on it to put the timbers in place.

The baseboards will need to be modular as I wont be able to do much on them in situ.

[Pacific231G]

On 03/03/2024 at 21:48, F-UnitMad said:

I agree with this. The traditional "British Exhibition layout mindset" has hidden sidings as being a 'must have', but is hidden staging really needed for a home layout...? After all, at home who are you trying to kid that a train has arrived from far away, when in reality it's come just a few feet, regardless of if that area is 'hidden' (again, from whom, exactly?) or scenicked.

 

I've had a slightly odd experience about this. I designed my small French terminus layout to be capable, for casual use , of being shunted with its three road fiddle yard replaced by a blanking piece in which state it fits neatly on the back of my worktable. The idea is that the daily goods train has just arrived and I can spend a pleasant half hour or so shunting it and replacing incoming with departing wagons until the loco is at the other end and the train is ready to depart. It is then only necessary  to run the loco round and move the brake van to the other end to repeat the cycle with the formerly outgoing wagons becoming the next day's inbound. This is much the same principle as shunting an Inglenook but with rather more variety in the shunting.

This idea worked fine but, rather to my surprise, I found that I still really wanted the train to enter  from offstage and exit offstage right as well,  The fiddle yard (which adds passenger and other workings) made the layout a bit too long for my table so I built a "fiddle stick" with a single  piece of track the length of a train (loco and five wagons) . The departed train still needs to be brought back for the loco to run round the train before propelling it off stage during the "interval" ready for the next cycle.  Somehow, this seems far more satisfying , even though I can see the train lurking in the wings,  but I'm not sure why. 

It's possible that exchange sidings would avoid this desire as the trains on your short line railroad complete their journeys and the class 1 fairies come and take the wagons away (or just change their cards) during the night. 

 

Though for a very different footprint this may give you some ideas for a complete short line. with two termini, one of them with an exchange siding, rather than a terminus to fiddle yard.   

I've always rather liked this plan  designed by Charles Small in 1951 to fit on a standard 9ft x 5ft table tennis table which, rather to my surprise when I re-drew it, fitted this small  area using ordinary Peco track with a minimum 18 inch radius. 

 The track that ends at the G of Gulf is obviously the exchange siding.  Nowadays one would build this as a shelf layout  which would allow for more gradual curves and avoid the spaghetti bowl appearance and,for a diesel era layout, you wouldn't need the turntables. Nevertheless it creates plenty of work for the train crew as this extract from Small's description of a trip for the daily "peddlar" freight run makes clear. It looks like he was using trains of five cars plus a caboose and they'd probably be 40ft cars. Small also assumed passenger as well as freight working but "mixed train daily" was a thing then and not only the title of Lucius Beebe's famous book on short lines.  

 

“Upon arriving at Gulf Siding, the train holds the main track. The brakeman then cuts it one car ahead of the caboose. This car and the caboose are left standing on the main while the engine and the other four cars pull down to clear the far switch of the siding. When this has been set for the siding, the engineer horses over his Johnson bar and pushes the four cars through the siding track and tunnel and on into Jone’s Mill. Here three cars are set out. The engine and one car (the one picked up at Bayou) come back, reverse the previous moves to couple onto the car and caboose left on the main line and the train departs, chugging on to complete its run at Lake Creole” 

 

With short trains anf maybe a branch,  I think you could get this sort of multi depot approach into a 19 ft x 11ft 6in L 

 

Edited March 5 by Pacific231G

[melmerby]

On 25/02/2024 at 03:04, DCB said:

2nd hand Insulfrog and DCC sounds ominous,

Points will be "DCC'ed"

e.g. First, cut switch rails to isolate them from the frog area

Then on underside, cut webs to allow bonding of switch rails to stock rails

Next cut web behind frog to bond the frog rails together

Then treat them the same as electrofrogs

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi Keith @melmerby, there’s something I’m not understanding here, sorry.  To me, it looks like both the exit rails from the frog (marked A in my copy of your photo) are bonded together by the yellow wire and the black wire to the upper running rail (B):

 

 

In my mind then, when the turnout is set straight, both running rails exiting to the right have the same polarity?  What am I missing?  Sorry, electrics / electronics are not my thing, but I’m trying to learn, Keith.

 

Edited March 8 by Keith Addenbrooke

[Happy Hippo]

Keith, I've come to this late, but as has been suggested earlier in the thread, less is more.

 

You might want to look at Tom Klimoski's Georgia Northeastern Railroad  short line, which is based on the real GNR.

 

Although his model is not L shaped,(it is end to end with a hidden continuous run if required,) and is modelling contemporary railroads, it is fascinating to watch and might give you some ideas on how to space out your industries.

 

https://www.thomasklimoski.com/georgia-northeastern

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Hi Keith @melmerby, there’s something I’m not understanding here, sorry.  To me, it looks like both the exit rails from the frog (marked A in my copy of your photo) are bonded together by the yellow wire and the black wire to the upper running rail (B):

If you look ast the underside view you can see the yellow wire isn't bonded to the black rail.

It's to be connected to the switch on the turnout motor

Edited March 8 by melmerby

[Keith Addenbrooke]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

If you look ast the underside view you can see the yellow wire isn't bonded to the black rail.

It's to be connected to the switch on the turnout motor

“D’oh!”

 

Got it - sorry, it’s just how the yellow wire is lying in the first photo.  If I only had a brain…

 

Keith.

[Schooner]

Came across this on my shelf the other day, and thought of you:

 

eg.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/shelf-layouts-for-model-railroads/iain-rice/9780890246900

[Keith Addenbrooke]

30 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Came across this on my shelf the other day, and thought of you:

 

eg.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/shelf-layouts-for-model-railroads/iain-rice/9780890246900

Excellent book - as much for the initial chapters on concepts as for the actual plans, which are well written up too, Keith.

[Night Train]

On 03/03/2024 at 21:48, F-UnitMad said:

I agree with this. The traditional "British Exhibition layout mindset" has hidden sidings as being a 'must have', but is hidden staging really needed for a home layout...? After all, at home who are you trying to kid that a train has arrived from far away, when in reality it's come just a few feet, regardless of if that area is 'hidden' (again, from whom, exactly?) or scenicked.

 

For home layouts, I like the idea of a scenic break and a scenic fiddle yard. Unless you have space for another destination.

Edited Monday at 18:17 by Night Train

[Oldddudders]

On 03/03/2024 at 22:48, F-UnitMad said:

I agree with this. The traditional "British Exhibition layout mindset" has hidden sidings as being a 'must have', but is hidden staging really needed for a home layout...? After all, at home who are you trying to kid that a train has arrived from far away, when in reality it's come just a few feet, regardless of if that area is 'hidden' (again, from whom, exactly?) or scenicked.

 

I take your point, but the off-stage area enables a different set of cars to arrive on-scene every session, and enables switching of e.g. Team Track and even RIP Track to vary the mobile scenery. Most of us have more cars and locos than we have track to stand them all on - equally true of many short-lines in the IPD car era, I think! - so being able to put each of them into service from time to time is nice. Yes, you can restock a wholly-visible layout between sessions, of course, but isn't the arrival of the daily train from off-stage a bit of an event? All a matter of taste. 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

I take your point, but the off-stage area enables a different set of cars to arrive on-scene every session, and enables switching of e.g. Team Track and even RIP Track to vary the mobile scenery. Most of us have more cars and locos than we have track to stand them all on - equally true of many short-lines in the IPD car era, I think! - so being able to put each of them into service from time to time is nice. Yes, you can restock a wholly-visible layout between sessions, of course, but isn't the arrival of the daily train from off-stage a bit of an event? All a matter of taste. 

 

Certainly agree with @Oldddudders it’s a matter of taste, so this is just an observation that may suit some, but not all - if a chosen prototype (real or imaginary) is deemed to have delivered a fresh set of cars to the interchange track overnight* then having a layout where there is no arrival event could make visual sense.  Just an additional thought, Keith.

 

(* ie: between operating sessions)

[melmerby]

I haven't updated on this for a while and there's been plenty of ideas since.

Thanks all those that have posted.

I've been doing the baseboards and have been priming them, so no trackwork yet.

 

I have bought a few new turnouts, code 100 electrofrogs, as I hadn't enough of the types I wanted in the recovered trackwork.

There will be a "fiddle yard" on the short arm where a good few cars can be stored and will some will be selected to go to the various places on the main part.