I'm a (newly qualified) Signalman on a preserved Railway - Ask Me Anything

[StuartMc]

It's just coming up for a year from when I decided to pop down to the nearest preserved railway to me (The Colne Valley Railway, just over the border from me in Essex) with a view to volunteering in some capactity. I ended up meeting a lovely chap, Derek, who showed me the signal box and after a few months of practice and study later, I became qualified to run it myself. I would heartily reccomend anyone with a railway interest of any sort should also pop along to their local preserved line and find out what you'd like to do.

 

I am thinking that (although I'm by no means an expert), I have picked up a lot of insider knowledge that might be useful to modellers.

 

So, ask away.

Don't be afraid to speak up if you think your question might be too basic or obvious - if you are thinking like that then you are exactly the person I want to help out the most.

 

Stuart

 

 

[BMS]

Hi,#Could you conform that the object beyond the chair in the second phot is a gatewheel please?

Or alternatively what is it!

Thanks

[Michael Hodgson]

Good photos.  Shouldn't 2 lever be painted white.  I notice that spares aren't shown on the diagram.

 

1 minute ago, BMS said:

Hi,#Could you conform that the object beyond the chair in the second phot is a gatewheel please?

Or alternatively what is it!

Thanks

Yes!

[Michael Hodgson]

You might like ths earlier version of the diagram, when the box was called Castle Hedingham.

 

 

 

Are you also passed out to work this (much simpler!) box ?

 

 

I'm sure Henry's supposed to be a red engine !  Defintely time I visited the line again.

 

[Boris]

What mode of signalling do you use?

[StuartMc]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Good photos.  Shouldn't 2 lever be painted white.  I notice that spares aren't shown on the diagram.

 

Yes!

 

You are correct about the wheel.

 

With regards the lever colours, our diligent engineers are making regular upgrades to the whole setup (I think 3 major improvements since I started a year ago), including to the frame configuration so the colours don't always get repainted at the same time.

In fact since that photo lever 2 is now a stop signal so correctly coloured - the levers are grouped more logically in sequence now, which helps my job. I think the "new" spare on  is now the one that's the wrong colour.

 

Stuart
 

[StuartMc]

3 hours ago, BMS said:

Hi,#Could you conform that the object beyond the chair in the second phot is a gatewheel please?

Or alternatively what is it!

Thanks

Michael is correct, you are right about this. It's not connected though and at some point it will be removed - either through the door (deliberately) or perhaps the old, old wooden floor...!!!!
Stuart

[StuartMc]

3 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

You might like ths earlier version of the diagram, when the box was called Castle Hedingham.

 

Are you also passed out to work this (much simpler!) box ?

 

I'm sure Henry's supposed to be a red engine !  Defintely time I visited the line again.

 

 

 

1. Yes, that's very interesting to see, some things are very different, some hardly changed at all.

 

2. I haven't been passed out for either of the other boxes, but I tend to do midweek turns when only Heddingham is open anyway.

 

3. I as for Henry I haven't seen him although he's listed on the web site so I guess he's out of the way hibernating under canvas somewhere.

 

Stuart

[StuartMc]

2 hours ago, Boris said:

What mode of signalling do you use?

 

We have a tokenless block in the Up direction from the box, to Nunnery Junction (i.e. controled by track circuit detection) and a Key Token machine for the Down direction (Drawell).

 

Stuart

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, StuartMc said:

 

We have a tokenless block in the Up direction from the box, to Nunnery Junction (i.e. controled by track circuit detection) and a Key Token machine for the Down direction (Drawell).

 

Stuart

The section used to be worked using a pair of Tyers No 6  tablet instruments;  when I visited they were just being recovered and I helped S&T shove one back from Nunnery Junction on a platelayers trolley.  They are extremely heavy machines!

If memory serves, the key token instruments at Drawell were being installed at the same time - they tend to be preferred as against tablet by preserved lines as they are easier to work.

 

[StuartMc]

27 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The section used to be worked using a pair of Tyers No 6  tablet instruments;  when I visited they were just being recovered and I helped S&T shove one back from Nunnery Junction on a platelayers trolley.  They are extremely heavy machines!

If memory serves, the key token instruments at Drawell were being installed at the same time - they tend to be preferred as against tablet by preserved lines as they are easier to work.

 

 

Tyler's No 6 Tablets sounds like some patent medicine you'd see in an advert from an early 1900 magazine!

 

Our new No 6 Table has added radium to give vitality and vigour to your infant - that 12 hour shift down the mine will be no trouble to a Tyler's child!

[Nick C]

22 hours ago, StuartMc said:

It's just coming up for a year from when I decided to pop down to the nearest preserved railway to me (The Colne Valley Railway, just over the border from me in Essex) with a view to volunteering in some capactity. I ended up meeting a lovely chap, Derek, who showed me the signal box and after a few months of practice and study later, I became qualified to run it myself. I would heartily reccomend anyone with a railway interest of any sort should also pop along to their local preserved line and find out what you'd like to do.

 

As a fellow heritage railway signalman (coming up to 4 years now since I qualified, so still a relative newby too, compared to some of my colleagues with 50+ years...), I'll assure you you're going to have fun! You'll soon find you get annoyed by badly-signalled layouts though ;)

 

22 hours ago, StuartMc said:

 

Is it just the way the diagram is drawn, or are none of the points covered by the track circuits? Or is that another of the 'in progress' things?

[Michael Hodgson]

That would appear to be correct, as the track circuits are named on the diagram AH, BH, CH etc, and there is no such label against the black tracks, and no indicator lamps in those sections. 

The usual convention is that the track is shown in black if it isn't track-circuited, and adjacent sections alternately Green/ Brown on the Down line, Yellow/Blue on the Up, with Orange available if another colour is needed.

 

Other conventions are also available though - the GWR of course had to do things differently.

[StuartMc]

10 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

That would appear to be correct, as the track circuits are named on the diagram AH, BH, CH etc, and there is no such label against the black tracks, and no indicator lamps in those sections. 

The usual convention is that the track is shown in black if it isn't track-circuited, and adjacent sections alternately Green/ Brown on the Down line, Yellow/Blue on the Up, with Orange available if another colour is needed.

 

Other conventions are also available though - the GWR of course had to do things differently.

 

Well I didn't know about the colour system. In fact the brown looks black and it took me a while to notice one of the sections!

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, StuartMc said:

 

Well I didn't know about the colour system.

 

It's more noticeable on the diagrams in modern signal boxes where everything but a few sidings is track circuited.

[StuartMc]

On 25/02/2024 at 14:22, Michael Hodgson said:

You might like ths earlier version of the diagram, when the box was called Castle Hedingham.

 

 

 

Are you also passed out to work this (much simpler!) box ?

 

 

I'm sure Henry's supposed to be a red engine !  Defintely time I visited the line again.

 

Saw Henry today whilst laying some track which is much harder at full scale than on a model.

[roythebus1]

On 26/02/2024 at 12:36, Michael Hodgson said:

That would appear to be correct, as the track circuits are named on the diagram AH, BH, CH etc, and there is no such label against the black tracks, and no indicator lamps in those sections. 

The usual convention is that the track is shown in black if it isn't track-circuited, and adjacent sections alternately Green/ Brown on the Down line, Yellow/Blue on the Up, with Orange available if another colour is needed.

 

Other conventions are also available though - the GWR of course had to do things differently.

Did the GWR have wider lines on their signa box diagrams? Until 1891?

[Boris]

Do all signalmen wear leather underpants or is it just me?

 

[Tumut]

On 26/02/2024 at 23:36, Michael Hodgson said:

That would appear to be correct, as the track circuits are named on the diagram AH, BH, CH etc, and there is no such label against the black tracks, and no indicator lamps in those sections. 

The usual convention is that the track is shown in black if it isn't track-circuited, and adjacent sections alternately Green/ Brown on the Down line, Yellow/Blue on the Up, with Orange available if another colour is needed.

 

Other conventions are also available though - the GWR of course had to do things differently.

 

Hello All, 1 / it is my understanding that each BR Region had a different standard !

2 / Just wondering if Magpie levers (top half White, bottom half Black )is a thing in the UK. In Victoria, Australia, the Victorian (State) Railways / VR, which used Mckenzie&Holland style mechanical interlocking frames, a Magpie lever was effectively a route proving lever when a colour light dwarf signal replaced an array of mechanical disc signals, this meant that the interlocking was not altered, but the overlapping electrical relays allowed one former disc lever to operate the replacement colour light dwarf signal in association with the required magpie lever.

3 / re the use of Tokenless Block, is the Home Departure and Home Arrival Signals interlocked with the TB Instrument, so that the Signal can only be placed to proceed after line Clear is granted ?

4 / in regards to the Key Token Instrument, is this also interlocked with the respective Home Signals ? If not, is the applicable Home Signal only placed to Proceed after Line Clear has been granted ? ( The issue here is that some lines apparently allow the Arrival Signal/s to be placed to Proceed for the next expected train to arrive without Line Clear either having been requested or granted, presumably on the basis that the required Token is assumed to be the sole required authority to travel. In Australia, the practice is that a Signal cannot be placed to proceed unless the requisite Token has been released, so the Signaller must check that the appropriate Token has been released, and the Driver must be in procession of the applicable Token, and the Driver must also check that the signal is at Proceed, prior to departure. )

Regards, Tumut ( retired Train Controller )

[StuartMc]

20 hours ago, Boris said:

Do all signalmen wear leather underpants or is it just me?

 

That's genarlly optional; it is only required by regulation 46.2  during the initiation ceremony; otherwise the point grease gets everywhere - this, like most safety regulations was brought in after a tragic accident, in this case an incident in 1893 at Bangor where a newly qualified Signalman tried to cycle home without properly removing all of the grease. He lost traction on the bike staddle, wobbled, and fell under an ex-Taff Vale 0-6-2T.

[StuartMc]

20 hours ago, Tumut said:

 

Hello All, 1 / it is my understanding that each BR Region had a different standard !

2 / Just wondering if Magpie levers (top half White, bottom half Black )is a thing in the UK. In Victoria, Australia, the Victorian (State) Railways / VR, which used Mckenzie&Holland style mechanical interlocking frames, a Magpie lever was effectively a route proving lever when a colour light dwarf signal replaced an array of mechanical disc signals, this meant that the interlocking was not altered, but the overlapping electrical relays allowed one former disc lever to operate the replacement colour light dwarf signal in association with the required magpie lever.

3 / re the use of Tokenless Block, is the Home Departure and Home Arrival Signals interlocked with the TB Instrument, so that the Signal can only be placed to proceed after line Clear is granted ?

4 / in regards to the Key Token Instrument, is this also interlocked with the respective Home Signals ? If not, is the applicable Home Signal only placed to Proceed after Line Clear has been granted ? ( The issue here is that some lines apparently allow the Arrival Signal/s to be placed to Proceed for the next expected train to arrive without Line Clear either having been requested or granted, presumably on the basis that the required Token is assumed to be the sole required authority to travel. In Australia, the practice is that a Signal cannot be placed to proceed unless the requisite Token has been released, so the Signaller must check that the appropriate Token has been released, and the Driver must be in procession of the applicable Token, and the Driver must also check that the signal is at Proceed, prior to departure. )

Regards, Tumut ( retired Train Controller )

 

1. That's my understanding, too. The regions were basically the original 4 railway companies who had their own set of rules for various aspects of signalling.

 

2. I haven't seen that in the UK but it wouldn't surprise me if someone here has!

 

3. On our line, yes the Line Clear is required to clear the signal to allow the train to leave the section - but the other signal boxes can be switched out which disables this lock.

 

4. On ours, I am not 100% sure, but I think the staff is not interlocked in this way. It's hard to tell as the token is never in the machine when I'm working the frame!
Obviously this would protect against some of the mistakes (forgetting the token entirely) but not from others - such as the Abermule disaster where there was a mix up of tokens.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

20 hours ago, Tumut said:

2 / Just wondering if Magpie levers (top half White, bottom half Black )is a thing in the UK. In Victoria, Australia, the Victorian (State) Railways / VR, which used Mckenzie&Holland style mechanical interlocking frames, a Magpie lever was effectively a route proving lever when a colour light dwarf signal replaced an array of mechanical disc signals, this meant that the interlocking was not altered, but the overlapping electrical relays allowed one former disc lever to operate the replacement colour light dwarf signal in association with the required magpie lever.

 

Levers being retained for interlocking purposes are/were common enough. The ones I know of have the bottom half painted in the colour to match their former function (red, in your example), and the top half painted white. Sometimes, when the lever no longer needs to be moved, the catch handle is removed, and such levers might be fixed in the reverse position. A picture of one (with catch handle still in situ, so presumably the lever is still in use) has been posted on RMWeb before (lever 17):

 

20 hours ago, Tumut said:

3 / re the use of Tokenless Block, is the Home Departure and Home Arrival Signals interlocked with the TB Instrument, so that the Signal can only be placed to proceed after line Clear is granted ?

4 / in regards to the Key Token Instrument, is this also interlocked with the respective Home Signals ? If not, is the applicable Home Signal only placed to Proceed after Line Clear has been granted ? ( The issue here is that some lines apparently allow the Arrival Signal/s to be placed to Proceed for the next expected train to arrive without Line Clear either having been requested or granted, presumably on the basis that the required Token is assumed to be the sole required authority to travel. In Australia, the practice is that a Signal cannot be placed to proceed unless the requisite Token has been released, so the Signaller must check that the appropriate Token has been released, and the Driver must be in procession of the applicable Token, and the Driver must also check that the signal is at Proceed, prior to departure. )

We seem to use different terminology. A "home" signal is one on the approach to a signalbox. Entry to the block section ahead is controlled by the section signal, commonly referred to as the "starting signal" or "starter", although there are all sorts of oddities in terminology.

 

There are probably few places today where the section signal is not interlocked with block instuments, but this used not to be the case. Two accidents (Abermule in 1921 and Welwyn in 1935) led to more widespread interlocking between block instruments, signals and track circuits or treadles, but there were still plenty of signal boxes with no interlocking between block instruments and signals in the 1960s, and many more without track circuits.

 

As far as I am aware, single track tokenless block always has section signals interlocked with block instruments (line clear gives a one-pull or one-train release), but ordinary double track absolute block often didn't, and nor did single track token instruments.

 

Another way block instruments might be interlocked with signals is home normal proving, where line clear can't be given by the box in advance unless their outermost home signal (the signal at the far end of the block section) is at danger. I have encountered this with single line token instruments.

 

This can then be elaborated on, with interlocking then requiring, for example, both the section signal to be cleared and returned to danger and the home signal of the box in advance cleared and returned to danger before the next line clear could be given (this in essence is how Sykes Lock and Block worked), and track circuits or treadles can be added to confirm that the previous train has actually passed before the next one can be signalled (Welwyn control).

[Grovenor]

Info here on the LMS standard for block controls

http://www.norgrove.me.uk/signalli-LMS.htm

Does not cover single lines though.

[Tumut]

Hello All, 1 / thank you Stuart and Jeremy for your answers.

2 / re terminology, specifically signal definition. As background, Australia and New Zealand Government railways used the 1905 Australasian Model Rule Book, based on the 1895 British RCH Model Rule Book, and in broad terms this, with updates, lasted until around 1990, Subsequently a new Plain English version became the quasi national basis in Australia. (I am personally not a fan of Plain English in this instance as the authors were non railway people who did not understand, nor distinguish between, some of the terminology, and deleted other bits as irrelevant, when they were not, this is a personal opinion).

3 / Yes, I am aware of the Starter signal definition as some UK railways used. In Victoria, the VR 1919 & 1966 Rule Book defined a Home Signal as protecting stations, sidings, signal boxes, level crossings, and junctions. And points/switches were protected by, and interlocked with, Home Signals. Whereas a Starter Signal only controlled the entrance of a train into the Section Ahead. As Tokens ( the VR used either Large Electric Staff, or Miniature Electric Staff, the Tablet Machines were nearly all replaced pre WW2 ) authorised a train to occupy a Single Line Section, at Interlocked stations a Home Departure, or Home Arrival Signal, which protected both the Station and were interlocked with the Crossing Loop points, hence the use of the term Home Signal.

4 / whilst discussing signal definitions, I have noticed in some Institute of Railway Signal Engineers / IRSE Newsletters, a 4 aspect colour light signal in the rear of a Home Signal protecting a Junction in Advance, is defined as a Distant Signal, yet from a Rule Book perspective, a Distant Signal only has two aspects, Yellow for Caution, next fixed signal is at Stop; or Green, next Block Section is clear to the next Distant Signal in advance, and all applicable signals are at Proceed. Whilst I can see why a Signal Engineer might perceive a 4 aspect signal at the rear of a Home Signal protecting a Junction, as a Distant Signal ; from a Signalman's / Signaller's perspective, such a definition, is both misleading, and may be a source of misunderstanding.

5 / the VR (and other State Railways) also had non interlocked crossing loops. These locations were protected by arrival Home Signals only, normally held at Proceed, and only placed to Stop if a cross, or a Shunt was required. At these locations the points were locked either by a staff lock, or by padlocked Plunger Locks. Some locations also had signal cable operated point sliding detectors. As a generalisation, non interlocked locations did not have a Distant Signal, though the New South Wales Railways / NSWGR did use Landmark Signals, a yellow equilateral triangle ( Highway sign style ) with cat's-eye reflectors, which at night time were illuminated by the locomotive headlight, though some did also have a Yellow light emanating from the centre of the triangle. 

6 / unlike the UK, the typical track layout at a Crossing Loop consisted of No.1 Road which was the station platform road, No.2 Road, which was the crossing loop road, and No.3 Road for the sidings, Goods Shed. Normally No.2 Road could only be occupied by a locomotive with vehicles for a shunt, or a locomotive hauled train. Unaccompanied vehicles could not be stabled on No. 2 Road.

7 / for crossing purposes, where two trains are intended to cross, the first scheduled train is arrived on No 1 Road, whilst the second scheduled train is held out on the Single Line Section. After the first train has completed its station work, it is set back onto the Single Line Section from whence it came, and then rerouted into No. 2 Road. ( The signalman receives the first train's Token on arrival, and holds onto it until the train has arrived into No. 2 Road, after which the first train's Token is placed in the Token Instrument/Machine, Train Arrival is sent to the Station / Block Post in the rear. ) The second train to arrive is now signalled into No.1 Road, the second train's Token is collected, placed in the Token Instrument, Train Arrival sent , once acknowledged, Is Line Clear is then sent for the first train, now sitting in No. 2 Road, if granted the Token is withdrawn ( being a different Token from that which the second train to arrive used ), this new Token is then issued to the Driver in No. 2 Road, and the appropriate signal is then placed to Proceed. The Signalman then asks Line Clear for the second train to arrive, which is on No. 1 Road, if granted, a new Token, not the one previously used by the first arriving train, is withdrawn, issued to the Driver of the second train, and the appropriate Signal is then placed to Proceed.

8 / as can be seen from the above, the described process utilized four different Tokens, and the Signalman's Train Register will indicate those Token numbers. Whilst in my experience, most train drivers made a note of the Tokens they received, this is not a Rule Book, or Special Instruction, requirement, but drivers who did this told me that in the event of an Incident, or a Lost Token, subsequent investigation would confirm the sequence of events.

9 / I hope that this is of some interest,

Best wishes and regards from Australia.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

2 hours ago, Tumut said:

4 / whilst discussing signal definitions, I have noticed in some Institute of Railway Signal Engineers / IRSE Newsletters, a 4 aspect colour light signal in the rear of a Home Signal protecting a Junction in Advance, is defined as a Distant Signal, yet from a Rule Book perspective, a Distant Signal only has two aspects, Yellow for Caution, next fixed signal is at Stop; or Green, next Block Section is clear to the next Distant Signal in advance, and all applicable signals are at Proceed. Whilst I can see why a Signal Engineer might perceive a 4 aspect signal at the rear of a Home Signal protecting a Junction, as a Distant Signal ; from a Signalman's / Signaller's perspective, such a definition, is both misleading, and may be a source of misunderstanding.

By 4-aspect, could they be referring to a colour light splitting distant, where there are two 2-aspect yellow/green signal heads side by side, replacing two distant arms side by side?

 

I don't wish to infringe copyright so I won't post the picture here, but there is a lovely photograph on the signalbox.org site of a combined section signal and 3-way splitting distant at Ely Station North (the distants are for Ely North Junction), so there are seven lamps: a red for the section signal, and three yellows and three greens for the distants, towards the bottom of this page: https://signalbox.org/branch-lines/tribute-to-dave-stenning/

 

Note that there will always be 3 lamps lit. Either a red (middle bottom) and two yellows, or one of the greens and two yellows, or three yellows.