Triang motor bogie wheel upgrade

[simon b]

Hi all. I've just bought what I think is an old MTK kit built class 205 DEMU on a certain auction site, and I need some help with its wheels. Going by the shape of the bogie sideframes the power bogie is from the Triang dmu, but it still has the original wheels fitted. The rest of the 3 cars have 15mm finescale wheels so the motor bogie wheels look very odd and undersized, what would be the best way to upgrade the triang motor bogie wheels?

 

 

Edited March 17 by simon b

[33C]

You could try grinding them down with a Dremel tool. I did all mine and the results are pictured after polishing with wet-n-dry. (Left, before, right, after.)

Edited March 5 by 33C
added detail

[simon b]

Thanks, but I need to go with bigger wheels. The motor bogie wheels  look to be 11 or 12mm, so look very undersize compared to the rest at 15mm.

 

I did read that the triang class 81 was fitted with larger wheels so perhaps that's a solution?

[DCB]

2 hours ago, simon b said:

Thanks, but I need to go with bigger wheels. The motor bogie wheels  look to be 11 or 12mm, so look very undersize compared to the rest at 15mm.

 

I did read that the triang class 81 was fitted with larger wheels so perhaps that's a solution?

Is this a plastic axle chassis like the Hymek and A1A or metal axle like the dock shunter /Transcon.   The Dock shunter takes Romford Markits wheels on the "Triang" conversion knurled centre axles, 14/15/16 mm.  Just fill in the spokes with araldite or similar. 
The plastic axle type are more difficult as I think ( could be wrong)  the gear is smaller than the Dock Shunter, X04 Nellie/Polly/ Connie axle gear.  There may not be enough clearance for 14/15mm wheels but the problem is finding a wheel thick enough to fit snugly on the plastic axle.  I have opened out Jackson coach wheels to fit  the plastic axles but they are too thin where they fit on the axles and they don't go on straight and /or work loose.

There are some brass wheels intended for plastic axles from H0  US Locos around 15mm ish, I have some in my scrap box but no idea if they fit the Triang plastic axles,  I believe the  Triang plastic axle is the same diameter on the end as the 1970 era metal axle, For example you can fit two Hymek wheels on a metal axle if 3  rail is your thing,  

     

[33C]

3 hours ago, simon b said:

Thanks, but I need to go with bigger wheels. The motor bogie wheels  look to be 11 or 12mm, so look very undersize compared to the rest at 15mm.

 

I did read that the triang class 81 was fitted with larger wheels so perhaps that's a solution?

Try the Triang Dock shunter, Transcontinental diesels as well. Cheaper and more common than the 81 wheel sets.

[DCB]

3 hours ago, 33C said:

You could try grinding them down with a Dremel tool. I did all mine and the results are pictured after polishing with wet-n-dry. (Left, before, right, after.)

If you fit a TT single start worm to one end of the armature and a standard2 start to the other the power bogie with knurled wheels make a wonderful rail cleaner/grinder

[kevinlms]

According to this page, the wheels should be 3ft 6in or 14mm, so any wheels that are 15mm are too big.  3ft 6in are actually standard for many/most EMU/DMU bogies.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_205

 

Sorry to ruin your party!

[simon b]

4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

According to this page, the wheels should be 3ft 6in or 14mm, so any wheels that are 15mm are too big.  3ft 6in are actually standard for many/most EMU/DMU bogies.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_205

 

Sorry to ruin your party!

They might be 14mm, the bogies are white metal parts glued together so I didnt want to try removing one at the moment to measure properly. In time I'll probably swap all the bogies out for something better, but for now I just want the motor car to sit level on code 75.   

[Captain Slough]

it was commented on here once that the Airfix class 31 has the same axle and gear size but bigger, finer scale wheels and may be a direct swap, but thats a 40 year old loco thats also getting rare now. I've never seen that actually done

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Captain Slough said:

it was commented on here once that the Airfix class 31 has the same axle and gear size but bigger, finer scale wheels and may be a direct swap, but thats a 40 year old loco thats also getting rare now. I've never seen that actually done

I had a look into that. The wheels are a little finer, but the axle and gear are a plastic version with a different number of teeth. It might be possible to swap the wheels itself but you would need to use a bush on the axle.

 

Hopefully I've got a solution now. I've just bought a spare motor bogie which has the smooth larger wheels fitted, so a bit of mix and match of the parts and a quick file down of the flanges should sort it out.

[uax6]

Plastic axles are easy. Force the old triang wheels off, and then get some Hornby coach wheels. Push the insulated bush out of the middle of the wheel pan, and then it will fit on the plastic axle. 

 

Andy G

[Michael Hodgson]

On 06/03/2024 at 09:37, simon b said:

In time I'll probably swap all the bogies out for something better, but for now I just want the motor car to sit level on code 75.   

 

Couldn't you just shove a couple of washers onto the bogie pivot to jack it up a bit?

[simon b]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Couldn't you just shove a couple of washers onto the bogie pivot to jack it up a bit?

 

Afraid not. The power bogie wheels are that small when it sits on the track, it looks like it's running along on the bottom of the axle boxes!

 

This pic should show what I mean.

 

Edited March 7 by simon b
pic added.

[Titan]

That could mean that the bogie frame is worn around the axles. When sufficiently worn they end up with the worm taking the weight, with the axle rocking on it. This causes the coffee grinder noise as the gears don't mesh as they should, and a wobbly body as the axles rock. Of course being Triang they still run, but in an unworn state the motors are an awful lot quieter and smoother. It also means that in a worn state they ride lower than they should which does not help your case either!

[simon b]

2 hours ago, Titan said:

That could mean that the bogie frame is worn around the axles. When sufficiently worn they end up with the worm taking the weight, with the axle rocking on it. This causes the coffee grinder noise as the gears don't mesh as they should, and a wobbly body as the axles rock. Of course being Triang they still run, but in an unworn state the motors are an awful lot quieter and smoother. It also means that in a worn state they ride lower than they should which does not help your case either!

That's good info, thanks. This one doesn't sound that noisy but then it does have the old serrated wheels fitted, there is no obvious excess axle movement but difficult to tell without striping it down. I've got another motor bogie with the correct size of wheel coming, so will use the best parts out of the pair when I reassemble it. I could in theory shim the axles in the housing if there is wear in it.  

 

I'm not going to go to mad on upgrades as it is lacking alot of detail compared to the Bachmann version, but for the price it was worth buying.

[roythebus1]

There's something wrong with that motor bogie, the wheels should sit central to the axle boxes regardless of wheel diameter. It's possible an MTK sideframe grafted onto a Triang motor bogie, the whole thing sits wrong.

Edited March 9 by roythebus1

[andyman7]

On 06/03/2024 at 03:25, 33C said:

Try the Triang Dock shunter, Transcontinental diesels as well. Cheaper and more common than the 81 wheel sets.

It's exactly the same wheelset - part number X.116 if you want to search for them loose

[33C]

28 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

It's exactly the same wheelset - part number X.116 if you want to search for them loose

You are correct but, type Triang class 81 motor bogie and there is a premium price attached. Get a damaged, old, Transcontinental diesel for a song.

[simon b]

6 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

There's something wrong with that motor bogie, the wheels should sit central to the axle boxes regardless of wheel diameter. It's possible an MTK sideframe grafted onto a Triang motor bogie, the whole thing sits wrong.

It doesn't look right does it? It is pure triang, the sideframes are part of the casting. The weird thing is that it runs perfectly, it has pickups on all 8 wheels and can crawl quite nicely.

 

I've got a complete dock shunter motor bogie coming fitted with smooth 14/15mm wheels, there should also be a new dmu bogie casting to go with it. That should allow me to build up a good one and get the thing to sit level.

 

I'll probably replace the other bogies for Hornby items, the MTK sideframes are starting to warp so the axles are getting a lose fit.

Edited March 10 by simon b

[DCB]

On 07/03/2024 at 09:10, uax6 said:

Plastic axles are easy. Force the old triang wheels off, and then get some Hornby coach wheels. Push the insulated bush out of the middle of the wheel pan, and then it will fit on the plastic axle. 

 

Andy G

The A1A plastic axle with moulded gear fits the NON Insulated Triang wheels   There is a larger axle used on cheap 0-4-0 chassis which fit the insulated wheels if you bash out the bushes.

 

6 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

There's something wrong with that motor bogie, the wheels should sit central to the axle boxes regardless of wheel diameter. It's possible an MTK sideframe grafted onto a Triang motor bogie, the whole thing sits wrong.

Definitely does not look right.    Might need MTK sideframes mounted higher up the bogie to get it right.   Axles out of line with axle boxes is common. See Mainline /Hornby Collett tenders up to 2010 approx

[Halvarras]

I've been looking online at a few broadside photos of the X3121 motor bogie and concluded that the axleboxes simply weren't tooled very accurately on the sideframes, as they all seem to sit like that. I can't believe wear is much of an issue with these as the interface between the steel axle and bearing surface in the casting is fairly large, which spreads the load.

 

Back in the 1970s I had a go at upgrading a Tri-ang 3-car Met-Cam DMU (I'd bought it at the Swindon Works Open Day in September 1975) with Anbrico engine castings and MTK exhaust pipes and bogies. For a more consistent appearance I dismantled the motor bogie, filed off all of the raised detail (which I recall wasn't easy, until I got a file large enough for the task) and glued on a pair of MTK DMU sideframes which had to be stretched slightly to get the axleboxes to align with the wheels, which in this case were Millholme 12mm turned brass items (the other bogies being fitted with 12mm Romfords running in Peco brass bearing cups). The new sideframes were of course slimmer than the Tri-ang originals, leaving a few exposed areas of the filed surface visible - filing it down further to suit was not practical so I painted the MTK sideframes in 'track colour' and the exposed filed areas around them satin black in an attempt to disguise these.

 

[SRman]

On 07/03/2024 at 22:29, Titan said:

That could mean that the bogie frame is worn around the axles. When sufficiently worn they end up with the worm taking the weight, with the axle rocking on it. This causes the coffee grinder noise as the gears don't mesh as they should, and a wobbly body as the axles rock. Of course being Triang they still run, but in an unworn state the motors are an awful lot quieter and smoother. It also means that in a worn state they ride lower than they should which does not help your case either!

 

I had that happen with an old, much abused but much-loved Triang DMU from my teenage years. It still ran, without too much grinding noise (they were noisy anyway!), but it gained a sort of automatic clutch effect. I could sit it in a station with a load behind it, turn the power on a little and one axle would start to turn but the other remained disengaged, so it would sit there idling, as it were, until I revved it up a bit more, the second gear would engage and it would move off.

I eventually replaced the bogie frame, transferring the works into  the new one, and it is still going to this day. The old bogie frame around the axles was paper-thin from the wear.

[uax6]

On 10/03/2024 at 02:14, DCB said:

The A1A plastic axle with moulded gear fits the NON Insulated Triang wheels   There is a larger axle used on cheap 0-4-0 chassis which fit the insulated wheels if you bash out the bushes.

 

 

I'm talking about the new Hornby wheelsets that you can buy...

 

Andy G

[simon b]

So the other bogies arrived yesterday, one complete dock shunter chassis and a spare dmu casting. Last night I just swapped the wheels over to see how it looks and the result is definitely an improvement, it now sits level rather than nose down. 

 

Here's a before and after comparison, still not perfect but it's level. I'll try the other bogie casting incase this one does have wear in it, and turn down the wheel flanges while it's in bits.

 

Edited March 14 by simon b

[simon b]

The rest of the bogies are white metal sides glued to a plastic center, not a great idea and prone to bits falling of it seems. I've got a Triang dummy DMU bogie that has pickups for the headcode lights that model had, that can go at the inner end of the power car, then normal coach bogies for the rest of the cars. It's a bit of a crude setup compared to bogies we have on offer now , but then so is the model they are attached to!

 

 

Edited March 15 by simon b
pics