Swiss main line signalling in N - advice welcome

[Frutigen]

When I needed advice on catenary for Obermatt, the members of this forum were a great source of knowledge and wisdom and the result was very pleasing. So here I am again and this time it’s about signalling. 

 

The layout is Swiss standard gauge, single track, secondary route, approximately 1 scale kilometre in visible track length with a 3 road through station and its goods yard. If pushed I’d say say it’s set in 1990 to 2005 ish but Rule 1 always applies. Some days it’s SBB, other days it’s BLS or a mix of both. 

 

I’m not really bothered about having signals that work, but I might be persuaded if the cost and complexity are low enough. 

 

In part, this is because the baseboard is solid insulation block about 150mm thick, with track then laid on Woodland Scenics foam risers, so any wiring would have to be laid into the scenery in some way. You can’t drill through from below. 

 

Also, the layout is DCC, with trains and points operated from a smartphone, and I’m not interested in building a separate physical control panel for non-DCC signals. So working signals would require suitable accessory decoders I think. The point decoders are located in a cavity beneath the village and all wiring goes back to there - laid before the scenery was added. 

 

I’m hoping the members of this forum might help me with 2 questions. First, what basic set of signals would give the layout an appearance of authenticity? And then, what is available that might suit my needs?

 

In case it helps, here are the track plan and an overview photo (both have already appeared in other threads). 

 

Edited March 10 by Frutigen

[Michael Hodgson]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_railway_signalling

 

[Frutigen]

Excellent, thank you. 

[MikeB]

If you're OK with German, there is slightly more information on the German Wikipedia page  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisenbahnsignale_in_der_Schweiz and a good guide at https://gleis3a.de/threads/signalsystemschweiz.  The  whole official set of rules  is online, search for Schweizerische Fahrdienstvorschriften FDV (R 300.1–.15), but that's overkill.

 

I looked at various brands of working signals for my HOm layout and decided on Mafen, who also do N signals.  Unlike some other makes, Mafen signals are robust (apart from the fine wires)  and do not have lots of unprototypical exposed wires, al least in 1:87.  They are working signals and can be controlled using DCC, eg ECoS Signal Pilots or Switch Pilots.  Although the costs mount up, using group signals can reduce the number needed.

[MrTea]

Hi Keith,

 

+1 for Mafen signals from me. I’ve got a couple installed on the loop at Veja Megstra and for me they look the part:

 

 

 

I’ve only ever had them temporarily wired up as I had plans to do something cleverer with them that linked in with the turnouts. 
 

I believe these are fairly accurate representations of the SBB signals you’d find on standard gauge lines. 
 

The box seems to indicate they could be used for BLS lines too?

(these are waiting to be installed once the scenery gets a bit further developed. I’ve no idea how I’m going to wire up the multi-aspect square headed one!)

 

 

[Erichill16]

I’ll be using Mafen signals on my layouts. They do have an incredible range.

Got Swiss and Dutch ones in store for when a layout finally gets built.

[Gottardo]

Hi Keith. Another vote for Mafen SBB/BLS signals from me.

For your layout I think you would need a main and advance signal (Haupt and Vorsignal) on the same post at the approach to your station from each direction. These would then need a separate advance signal (Vorsignal) positioned at a suitable distance before them. The station could have a main departure signal (Hauptsignal) for each of the three tracks depending on how you operate the station. You could, however, employ the old system whereby one main signal is positioned after the three station tracks come together and can apply to any of them. That way you would only require two main departure signals instead of possibly six. I don't think you would need to have any other signals in "open country".

I can't help with  DCC operation as, when it comes to signals, I am purely a wire and rotary switch person. 😀

Edited March 11 by Gottardo
Wrong terminology used.

[Gordonwis]

I had a Mafen N SBB signal but found it too delicate for my layouts that need constant moving to a storage shelf.  I also felt it was too small (in some cases overscale in N can help the brain to compute what it is seeing) so I use more of the old Lemaco Kyodo version. However, to save money,  I have gone the cheap way recently by using the German dummy signal pack (Busch 5850)  and cutting a tiny pieces off each signal face and adding a white surround to make them the 'Swiss style'.

 

In the most basic scenario, a few main signals, main and distant signals and distants planted  at the key locations will make the layout look OK.

 

In the meantime, some of my [too] many Swiss phots with signals visible

 

signal on three-track Lausanne - Geneve at Chambesy

 

 

 

 

 

The 'home' main plus distant signal for Twann station, June 2022

 

  

 

 

 

Edited March 12 by Gordonwis

[Frutigen]

Thank you to all who responded with much helpful info and advice. I found the documents very useful (and I was able to read the German ones by opening them in the Chrome browser which translates them quite well). I enjoyed the photos from the 2 layouts and the photo at Twann illustrated a real situation well, especially as I’ve visited it before. 
 

The overwhelming vote for Mafen signals has me convinced. Having studies some single track cab video I’m happy to go with @Gottardo’s suggested scheme and to keep cost and complexity down I’ll probably go with group start signals. 
 

Would anyone be willing to offer a view as to how many lights the start and home signals should have? Either 3 or 4 seems suitable but I haven’t yet worked out the subtleties of the signalling system enough to come to a conclusion. 

[chb2488]

The number of lights depends on the different speeds your signal should be able to indicate. That again depends on the speed which you reckon the individual points allow (excuse me if I‘m going to far towards the basics).

 

On the left hand station exit you could have individual signals, showing Im1, Im3 and Im2 going from the outermost to the innermost of the roads. That would amount to three lights for the two innermost signals and two for the outermost. (Edit: or four on a group signal)
 

For the right hand station exit you could have one group signal for the freight yard (if you plan to allow for starting train movements from there) and a group signal after the last turnout towards the line. That one might show Im1 for the two outermost roads and Im2 for the two others, so three lights.

 

(Please note that I‘m paid for reading signals, not for putting the right ones in the right place…)

 

Best regards

 

Christian

Edited March 13 by chb2488

[Gottardo]

Hello Christian,

I hope Keith doesn't mind me editing his drawing but based on your comments would this arrangement be acceptable?

 

 

Edited March 14 by Gottardo

[Flying Pig]

15 hours ago, chb2488 said:

That one might show Im1 for the two outermost roads and Im2 for the two others, so three lights.

 

Not a Swiss railways expert but have watched a lot of cab videos. When there is a group signal doesn't it show a diferent aspect for each road? There is a sign by each line with the number of the aspect that applies to it.

[chb2488]

@Gottardo: pretty much spot on, but the signal principal d‘entrée on the left would need to have four lenses just like the signal de sortie de groupe, since they control the same points.

 

@Flying Pig: there are several ways to give additional signaling to a group signal, the one you describe is one of the more common ones. Trouble really starts when a group signal should control more than three tracks, with some of the roads allowing for similar speeds.

[Gottardo]

@chb2488 Thanks Christian. Drawing amended.

 

[cornish trains jez]

Those Mafen signals look superb! There was another company doing SBB style signals but I can’t remember the name. I think they also did a gantry style signal too.

[Gottardo]

Hi Jeremy. You're probably thinking of Microscale. Their signals are great but very expensive.

https://www.microscale.ch/

[MikeB]

57 minutes ago, Gottardo said:

Hi Jeremy. You're probably thinking of Microscale. Their signals are great but very expensive.

https://www.microscale.ch/

Are Microscale still in existence?  Their last website update was three years ago, and I've read reports that e-mails to them receive no reply. 

[Erichill16]

As no one has mentioned the Kyodo signals made in Japan and marketed by Lemaco I thought I’d post these pictures. I’m pretty sure they’re not available anymore and I’ve had them years and can’t remember where I got them from. Looks like I’ve got enough for a decent sized layout .

[Gordonwis]

1 hour ago, Erichill16 said:

As no one has mentioned the Kyodo signals made in Japan and marketed by Lemaco I thought I’d post these pictures. I’m pretty sure they’re not available anymore and I’ve had them years and can’t remember where I got them from. Looks like I’ve got enough for a decent sized layout .

 

 

 

I did in fact mention the Kyodo Lemaco signals in my post on Tuesday. I prefer them to Mafen because you can actually see them (!) but getting hold of them now is very hard, hence my decision to use cheapy plastic German signals modified

[Erichill16]

6 minutes ago, Gordonwis said:

 

 

I did in fact mention the Kyodo Lemaco signals in my post on Tuesday. I prefer them to Mafen because you can actually see them (!) but getting hold of them now is very hard, hence my decision to use cheapy plastic German signals modified

Sorry, forgot you mentioned them, and now recall reading your post. ( and rating it!)

[Gordonwis]

The other problem with Mafen signals is that the 'nicest' aka most 'imposing' ones (ie the multi aspect and combined 'home and distant' versions) are between 30 and 60 quid a pop.

 

One reason why I went with the dummy Busch ones (pack of 12 for £15 from a discount retailer)  

Edited March 14 by Gordonwis

[Gordonwis]

Here are the Busch cheapies on my layout Chamossaire at ESNG last September

Edited March 15 by Gordonwis

[Frutigen]

Thank you @Gottardo and @chb2488 for the signalling diagram! That’s an enormous help and much appreciated. 
 

Thank you also to those who have mentioned and illustrated various different makes of signal, all food for thought. 
 

I think I might have to get some samples and see how it would all go together from an installation point of view. Although I’d be quite happy with dummy signals I find myself now at the edge of the working signals rabbit hole and want to see just how much of a faff it might be to make them work with different aspects as described here by others. First off I’ll look into how JMRI handles signals. I already use it to set routes with one touch, rather than setting individual points, so it would be really nice if the associated signals could set automatically for that route at the same time. 

Edited March 16 by Frutigen