Hornby’s unbelievable ( for the wrong reason ) A4’s

[DevilsAdvocate]

Hi all,

 

I wish to share this thread with you, if nothing else, to see if anyone else has had issues anywhere like the ones I’ve set out below, or whether I’ve seen a black cat or put a pair of new shoes on the table, or walked under a ladder or something !

 

I decided a few weeks ago, to collect ‘ The Great Gathering ‘ A4’s from Hornby. The die cast ones I hasten to add, that are still retailing at £320 ! 

 

I have been lucky enough through selling stock i don’t run anymore to be able to afford to buy 5 of them in a short period of time, to be faced by the following as i write this :-

 

R30264 - 4464 - BITTERN,  £320 shop purchase, works fine

 

R30265 - 60008 - DWIGHT D EISENHOWER,  £320  brand new shop  purchase made on line -  Yesterday - makes a grinding noise & won’t move. Got to be sent back

 

R30261 - 4468 - MALLARD £320 shop purchase works fine

 

R30266 - 60007 - SIR NIGEL GRESLEY.  £395 Private buyer brand new purchase - It judders - Back at Hornby for repair

 

R30262 - 4489 - DOMINION of CANADA £320 shop purchase -  something catching on the driving wheels or cogs  inside - sounds horrible - Shop has sent back to Hornby

 

So, £1,035 worth of brand new loco’s needing repair !

 

Hang on folks, not finished yet

Previous non A4 purchases made in the last 12 months

 

R30231 -  70 - QUEEN ELIZABETH JUBILEE -  £550 on line private buyer purchase - Brand new -  had to be sent back to Hornby, Burning DCC chips out -  reason for this, they’d wired the motor up incorrectly !

 

R3973 60007 SIR NIGEL GRESLEY   £300 ( in green this one ). On line brand new purchase. Worked fine for a fair while - Now also back at Hornby as it’s just died on me

 

Another £850 worth

 

I find this unbelievable. These locomotives are not exactly cheap and i am incensed by this. 

I have since learned, that none of the loco’s above were tested by the shops / private buyers before selling. 

Why don’t they do this ? They just assume they’ll just work perfectly straight out of the box - which they should do of course, but invariably don’t !

 

So who is to blame ?

 

I blame myself, for ordering such expensive loco’s with knowledge that they won’t have been tested before selling on, however why should they be at the end of the day ?

The items SHOULD work, they’re brand new !

 

 Hornby have got to take a good look at themselves with issues like this. This is just not good enough

 

To get things into perspective :-

 

These locomotives were / are a great idea by Hornby to reproduce. A great collection to have, a fantastic collection to own. 

All 6 loco’s are just awesome to observe, the detailing is magnificent.

 

I’m even willing to pay the extortionate £320 for each, but if this is typical of the failure rate of their models, Hornby need to ask themselves some serious questions

 

They are reproducing these again in “ The Great Goodbye “ collection.

I’m assuming this is because you can say goodbye to them when purchased as they head back to Margate for repair !!

 

I am now back to having 4 of this collection

I really am unsure whether to continue with the two i need now, or sell on the 4 i have when the two come back from Hornby 

 

I have NEVER had issues anywhere near this scale with any of the Heljan, Accurascale, or Bachmann locomotives i have ( 32 and counting )

 

If i do decide to complete this set, those two i still need will be the last Hornby locomotives I’ll ever buy - Never again !

 

I am aware, that a lot of your good selves will be running hundreds of Hornby loco’s with no issues, but for me they’ve been a nightmare

 

As usual, your thought are invaluable

 

Thanks for reading

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MartynJPearson]

I'm afraid I've had similar woes with Hornby models, my Bachmann models outnumber Hornby but the problems go the other way round...

 

Class 08 : Poor wheel contacts (self repaired after help from Hornby)

Class 31 : Lighting board failed (self repaired as no spares available)

HST : Wiring fault, sent back for warranty repair

Class 153 : Poor running / grinding, sent back for warranty repair

MK2 carriages : NEM pockets held on by willpower alone

 

I would add that whenever I have contacted them, they have been really helpful - far better than 40 years ago when I entered the hobby as a child and had a loco and several wagons for Christmas which had to go back. Their response to a complaint letter was that these things happen in transit - quite how a wagon developed square wheels in transit I'll never know.

 

Hornby is one of those brands that has been an integral part of railway modelling for many years and so you want them to thrive; unfortunately when newer firms come along and beat them on price and quality (the Cavalex class 56 for example) it does make you wonder.

[DevilsAdvocate]

It gives me no pleasure to read your reply Martin. Interesting yes, but this is no joke is it ?

Hornby make some marvellously detailed locomotives, but what good is that if their running capability is poor

 

I’ll never buy another that’s for sure

 

[GrumpyPenguin]

3 hours ago, DevilsAdvocate said:

I have since learned, that none of the loco’s above were tested by the shops / private buyers before selling. 

Why don’t they do this ? They just assume they’ll just work perfectly straight out of the box - which they should do of course, but invariably don’t !

You have to realise that there are a couple of types of collector out there that never take models out of the box (& check the box ends to double check) & those that never run the models and they spend their lives as "showcase queens", that could be why they are not checked, not even for basic running.

[DCB]

9 minutes ago, chiefpenguin said:

You have to realise that there are a couple of types of collector out there that never take models out of the box (& check the box ends to double check) & those that never run the models and they spend their lives as "showcase queens", that could be why they are not checked, not even for basic running.

The problem as I see it is that in the 1950s  when Hornby Dublo were going strong modellers bought OO locos to pull trains.  They were expensive, nearly £5 so few could afford many locos, many had only two, an 0-6-2 tank and a Pacific  and only a tiny number (if any)  were displayed by the new owners in display cabinets.  

Now perhaps 30%  are kept pristine in their original packages, 30% displayed in display cabinets  many 30% spend time on shed  on permanent layouts  yet seldom or never haul trains (like mine)  and the rest are used for hauling trains.  Which they are not much good at if my Un -rebuilt Merchant Navy is anything to go by.   So it doesn't make sense to check every loco before dispatch when maybe 60% never get run and 50% are probably fine and 50% of owners will fix the fault themselves so fixing maybe 10% when returned is a better business proposition than checking 100% and fixing half of them.   Hornby is there to make money, the trains are incidental

[DevilsAdvocate]

Thank you for your replies thus far

 

However, whilst i agree a lot of modellers to buy collections such as this one to display only and never run, the option to run if required has surely got to be there ?

A running, working model is what Hornby have manufactured here, and their price tag  for it obviously reflects this

 

We rarely ( some of us do of course ) buy models with the idea we will sell them on at some point, but should we want to do this at some point, who will want to purchase one that is faulty, and the mulitary loss on such a locomotive would make it not worth selling.

 

You are absolutely right DCB stating that Hornby are there to make money, but so are Bachmann and the rest of the manufacturers, and yes, they too have issues with their products, but in 40 yrs of modelling and purchasing loco’s & stock, I’ve never witnessed a buy to fail ratio as severe as the ones I’ve witnessed above.

 

When purchasing a locomotive for £320 ( £350 actually if a DCC decoder is added ), the very least i expect of it is to run 

 

This collection when and if completed will also go into a display cabinet, but i do want the option of being able to give them a run out on occasion if only to keep the motor ticking over.

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Having slept on this, i am still incensed with this and have written to Hornby regarding these issues.

 

I expect them to do absolutely nothing. At best I’ll get a patronising reply back, something like ‘’ we’ve never had any problems with them before ‘’, similar to the reply Martin had, but we’ll see.

 

Off to the Post Office now to send yet another one back to the shop…..For the last time !

[Deano]

I’d at the least write an email/letter and follow up with a call. The basic concept for a quality product is that it does what the item was designed to do.

 

Your purchases don’t fit that brief.

 

I’d be angry too. Good luck. 

[DevilsAdvocate]

Cheers Deano 

 

I have indeed sent the E Mail.

The courier company have also mailed to say they will be delivering a package from Hornby tomorrow 

 

It will the two I sent them 3 weeks ago

I hardly dare try them. If they aren’t right I think I’ll explode !

 

[The Johnster]

Hornby seem to be a bit lax when it comes to QC, and it does seem that some models are more prone to problems than others.  As my layout needs mostly South Wales GW tank engine prototypes, a majority of my locos are Bachmann and are reliable, smooth-running performers, but I have Hornby 42xx and 5101s that have both given repeated trouble with the rear faces of cylinders coming off and piston rods detaching from the cylinders and damaging the slide bars; the 42xx is currently out of service with a broken slide bar bracket because of this.  This loco has a history of things falling off it; buffers, couplings &c. 
 

Meanwhile, down at the colliery, my Hornby W4 and B2 Pecketts are running perfectly, absolutely delightful models in every respect.  QC is done in China and the level of it is what the company pays the Chinese sub-contractor for, and since there is little difference in the overall design of mechs between Bachmann and Hornby but that Bachmanns seem more robust in service while (as a generalisation) costing a little more, it looks as if Bachmann are paying for a higher level of QC than Hornby, but this is an assumption on my part and I have no actual evidence to back it up.  

Edited March 14 by The Johnster

[spamcan61]

5 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Hornby seem to be a bit lax when it comes to QC, and it does seem that some models are more prone to problems than others.   I have Hornby 42xx and 5101s that have both given repeated trouble with the rear faces of cylinders coming off and piston rods detaching from the cylinders and damaging the slide bars; the 42xx is currently out of service with a broken slide bar bracket because of this.  This loco has a history of things falling off it; buffers, couplings &c. 
 

Meanwhile, down at the colliery, my Hornby W4 and B2 Pecketts are running perfectly, absolutely delightful models in every respect.  

Different design teams / factories maybe.

[The Johnster]

Possibly.  But if there is a perceptible quality difference between Hornby and other RTR producers (and my feeling is that there is such a difference), it does not auger well for Hornby’s future among ‘serious’ modellers, and since they are arguably the company that are historically the most rooted in the crude, poorly detailed, and toy-like train set market, they have more to prove with their current RTR models.  They don’t seem to be proving it adequately IMHO and Devil’s Advocate John’s experience with his A4s bears my opinion out. 

Edited March 14 by The Johnster

[andyman7]

I do agree that in my experience Hornby's QC and consistency is more variable than other manufacturers. I also agree that rather a lot of these super-detail models end up in cabinets and a rather small proposition are actually worked hard (i.e. hauling long loads and/or used frequently and/or for extended periods.

 

I always check new items before putting them away, even if I have no immediate use for them. I am as guilty as others for buying things because I like them without really needing them and haven't physically got the time to ensure that all my models get run regularly; however, my (teenage) son does use his models more and through repairing and fettling those I have been more exposed to the longer term issues - for example, the lights failing on a month-old HST dummy power car. I could have returned it or sent it back but as the part was available for £7 it was just quicker and easier to swap it out myself. On the 2MT 78XXX thread I was helped to identify where to put back the bits that ended up separated from the model on a arrival - that one's a beautiful model and runs sweetly but I wouldn't vouch for it running for a long period without something coming adrift.

 

Hornby would benefit from attending to these issues but they are not new developments, the variation in specification, design and build quality across comparable items in their range goes back years. The VEP came out in 2010 and it has taken a fairly major redesign to deliver (in 2024) a model that at last is really good and value for money at today's elevated prices. Or take the APT - it reminds me of the British motor industry in the 70s, where those in the know would always wait for the Mk2 iteration of the model that ironed the faults present when the first version was launched too quickly with inadequate development.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

17 hours ago, DevilsAdvocate said:

I have since learned, that none of the loco’s above were tested by the shops / private buyers before selling. 

And there is a reason for this, the flawless box is far and away the most important aspect of the product. Are you the target customer?

 

I know I am not; packaging is disposed of once the model has passed my infant mortality test regime and the warranty has expired. (The model is out on the layout and running and thus valueless to collectors.)

 

Last mechanism failure of a retailer purchased Hornby loco was a split axle gear on a Q1 while being tested, coming on 20 years past: replacement wheelset quickly supplied via retailer, all well to date. Near forty Hornby locos in service and no problems: two of the private purchases had declared faults which I knew I could fix, and did; near all of the pre 2007 productions (N2, 8F, Q1, Brush 2, A3, A4, 08, M7, L1) have been significantly modified to eliminate recognised weaknesses in the mechanism designs which experience had shown led to failures various. The 'charmed exception' was the BR 7MT on which in my perception Hornby matched Bachmann for the first time. The 'poor mechanism design aspect' ceased after Sanda Kan were bought out by Kader, followed by a 'shake out' of Kader thereafter: this resulted in much of the technique evident on Bachmann UK product fairly briskly appearing in Hornby's products to good effect, as seen in those that I have (B1, B12/3, B17, D16/3, J15, J36, 700, J50, K1, O1, P2, Q6, W1).

 

Comparison to the two other brands that dominate the layout operation:

Bachmann, slightly more traction items, no early test failures, other than a K3 which was manufactured during the fad for lead free solder, and my K3's thus had soldered connections 100% replaced as a precaution. Recent failure of a 20 myear old K3 mechanism when a motion bracket detached, and that's it. (I own an early Pepp A1 which was on the recall list for motor replacement due to a batch of faulty wire used in the armature windings; the motor was perfect and so I didn't return it, still running.)

Heljan, ten items, no early test failures, one minor problem which revealed an unexpected design error, pick up attachment on the class 16 not standard with the very sound method employed on all their previous products that I have seen.

 

As for 'all the rest', nine items, all good, the oldest would be the Rapido Stirling single.

 

I would quite like an all metal body A4 from Hornby one of these days, wonder how it will be?

[DevilsAdvocate]

Hi again all,

 

I just thought i would update you all as the two Sir Nigel’s Gresley’s have arrived back from repair from Hornby

 

R30266, The Great Gathering Sir Nigel they have fitted new valve gear

R3973, the green Sir Nigel they have fitted new wheels to this one.

 

R30266. Brand new, never been taken out of the box, needing new valve gear. It’s astonishing. £395 that cost

R3973.  12 months maximum out the box requiring new wheels

 

I have said enough about this issue. I am grateful to Hornby for repairing these, this means I’ve got £695 back in working order. It’s a relief i can tell you

That leaves Dominion of Canada to come back from repair and the other two to get and then I’m done. I can’t stand the hassle !

 

As Andyman 7 has quite rightly pointed out, Hornby’s QC really needs a dose of looking at though

 

Reading through your replies, they all make great reading and although it isn’t great, it’s eye opening to hear that I’m not the only one who’s had similar issues

 

Daft as it may sound, I didn’t think many if anyone buy to just put into a cabinet and never run

I was even more surprised about folk buying and just leaving in the box

 

Ive never done either, i like to see them run

 

This isn’t a criticism, it’s everyone to their own, and having thought about it, i do understand it. 

 

So back to the A4’s

Got 3, 1 to come back from Hornby, and 2 left to get

 

Tell me why we love this hobby again ??

 

Cheers

[GrumpyPenguin]

At least these look like they were tested before they left the factory ;

 

[Hal Nail]

With most current model manufacturing, individual locos aren't usually tested. They factor in an expected level of duffs, and returning for a replacement is the default position.

 

Presumably if they get too many they take it up with the factory but we aren't privy to that.

 

Opening the box means it is no longer new (the proper definition, as opposed to ebay sellers more liberal interpretation) so reluctance to do so routinely is for that reason.

 

That said if you ask, I've generally found retailers will test locos for you before despatch.

 

 

[DevilsAdvocate]

17 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

With most current model manufacturing, individual locos aren't usually tested. They factor in an expected level of duffs, and returning for a replacement is the default position.

 

Presumably if they get too many they take it up with the factory but we aren't privy to that.

 

Opening the box means it is no longer new (the proper definition, as opposed to ebay sellers more liberal interpretation) so reluctance to do so routinely is for that reason.

 

That said if you ask, I've generally found retailers will test locos for you before despatch.

 

 

Yes, your’e right, most shops will test loco’s for you if you ask them

Problem I have with these Gathering A4’s is that they’re quite hard to find nowadays & shop stock is limited. My fault as I should have ordered them when they came out, but there you go 

 

I work in Quality control, so that doesn’t help either really. If I owned a shop and someone ordered from me on line, I would test it before sending it out. A simple and quick exercise that cuts out the disappointment for the customer should the item be faulty, but that’s just me.

 

The trouble with E Bay and the like is that folk buy brand new, never take them out of the box, and then assume they are in immaculate working order, when sometimes they’re not, my West Country Queen Elizabeth being a prime example
 

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, DevilsAdvocate said:

If I owned a shop and someone ordered from me on line, I would test it before sending it out. A simple and quick exercise that cuts out the disappointment for the customer should the item be faulty, but that’s just me.

I actually meant a shop opening the box affects the warranty for the purchaser, I think.

I'm not sure about this tbh but I've seen it quoted on here frequently (which doesn't stop it being rubbish of course).

 

Also it probably isn't actually a quick exercise for the big retailers when new stock arrives; they regularly suggest they are flat out for a few days getting everything dispatched as it is.

 

I agree its poor by though (as indeed are most things these days!) I'm just offering the reasons usually given.

[roythebus1]

Think yourselves lucky you're not in the bus industry, £500,000 worth of battery buses all unusable because of defects.

[kevinlms]

On 14/03/2024 at 22:16, The Johnster said:

Possibly.  But if there is a perceptible quality difference between Hornby and other RTR producers (and my feeling is that there is such a difference), it does not auger well for Hornby’s future among ‘serious’ modellers, and since they are arguably the company that are historically the most rooted in the crude, poorly detailed, and toy-like train set market, they have more to prove with their current RTR models.  They don’t seem to be proving it adequately IMHO and Devil’s Advocate John’s experience with his A4s bears my opinion out. 

But it can hardly be in Hornby's interest in having failures in their product range. Testing ought to be done straight off the production line and any faults identified and fixed, BEFORE they go into boxes and sent half way around the world.

If Hornby are getting poor QC from their contractors, then Hornby should be looking for other builders for their models.

 

The Hornby Class 31 has had issues with mazac rot for many years and it still recurs in newer models. Perhaps Hornby need to make their factories aware that it isn't acceptable, for their models to disintegrate perhaps just after a standard warranty of 12 months. Might save them money in the long run.

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Think yourselves lucky you're not in the bus industry, £500,000 worth of battery buses all unusable because of defects.

How many buses is that, doesn't sound that many for todays prices?

Hardly unique, lots of trains prove to be too wide for platforms and similar problems.

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

How many buses is that, doesn't sound that many for todays prices?

One double decker, I suppose half a million sounds more dramatic than 1😄

Edited March 16 by melmerby

[kernowtim]

A bus driver friend told me their 2016 diesel double deckers cost £250,000 Each when new! 

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, kevinlms said:

But it can hardly be in Hornby's interest in having failures in their product range. Testing ought to be done straight off the production line and any faults identified and fixed, BEFORE they go into boxes and sent half way around the world.

If Hornby are getting poor QC from their contractors, then Hornby should be looking for other builders for their models.

 

The Hornby Class 31 has had issues with mazac rot for many years and it still recurs in newer models. Perhaps Hornby need to make their factories aware that it isn't acceptable, for their models to disintegrate perhaps just after a standard warranty of 12 months. Might save them money in the long run.

 

Of course, I'm not party to the inner workings (nor should I be, in the interests of commercial confidentiality), but AIUI production slots are taken up as they become available in the Chinese factories where the component parts are made.  So different production runs of any individual models may well originate from different factories and/or from more than one factory simulaneously before being sent to the assembly plant for, um, assembling, then packed as completed models for shipping to the UK, Margate in the case of Hornby.  Hornby will presumably be paying for a set level of QC at the final assembly plant, but have little control over QC at the subcontractor factories. 

 

Mazak rot is a particularly difficult one to impose QC on to, because each mix of the alloy will be slightly different and  dependent to some extent on the quality of the ingredient metals in the alloy, and then one has to consider that it takes some time to develop in the finished casting.  I doubt if the subcontractor foundries are even aware of the issue or what the castings are actually intended for, they just cast them to the dimensions of the CAD data they've been sent.  And, again, we are likely to be talking about a number of foundries spread widely in the geographical sense over that huge country. 

 

I would assume that there is no contact between Hornby and these foundries, as Hornby will be dealing with an agent in China who arranges all that sort of thing; Hornby's contact with the process will be limited to the agent and possibly the final assembly/packing plant.  My guess is that Margate are trying to save costs by skimping on the level of QC at the assembly plants, in order to remain competitive, and if this is indeed the case, I completely agree with you that it is not going to reflect well on them in the longer run and this discussion may be evidence that they are beginning to be called out on the practice by the customers, but they are still in crisis mode and will be no doubt tempted to make such production cost savings in order to keep the wolves from the door, the plan being to keep thier fingers crossed that their situation will improve before the biological waste product hits the rotary ventilation device, and then pay for a better level of QC when they can afford it.  Personally (and I really hope I am wrong), I think they are circling the drain and have been for most of this century, and are only surviving on the back of the gigantic amount of goodwill that they have built over the previous century (few companies in any industry can claim such a high level of it), but that they are doomed if they continue in this fashion.  As my Pecketts prove, they are capable of manufacturing superb models of high quality, but they need to be consistent in this respect. 

 

It is probably impossible to test every loco for running at the assembly plants, beyond the most simple short ciruit testing.  A full running test on a test track would probably take several minutes and hold up the line, so will be done to a set percentage of models, the set percentage being whatever level Margate is prepared to pay for.  My view is that I would rather pay a higher price for the models and fund a better level of QC, but the trade, who know a lot more about this sort of thing than me, maintains that it is difficult to get UK customers to pay the prices necessary to sustain production of detailed, high performance, models; comparing European and US RTR bears this out.  We want a Pullman service for mileage rates, and by and large we get it, but you can see why and how Hornby have costed themselves into a corner that they can't easily get out from as regards QC.