Prodigy Advance track voltage

[ATME]

I bought a new Prodigy Advance yesterday based on the specs on the GM website showing a track voltage of 15 volts. Sadly the power supply is labelled 13.8v giving a track voltage of 13.3v (Alphameter) I spoke to GM this morning and was told that the power supply is indeed the correct unit and the base station components would not permit a higher voltage. I have suggested they amend their website specs for the Prodigy Advance. 
You may be asking why the voltage is that much of an issue when I can still run stuff and the voltage is nominally NMRA compliant? Well I have been having some issues with Loksound v5 and stayalives where the suggested voltage is min14v so I thought time to upgrade from a Prodigy Express to the Prodigy Advance to checkout the voltage query and get some more amps for more locos plus other functionality. Sadly the Advance is not as advertised now. Would be interested to hear if the voltage drop is recent or not.

Edited March 28 by ATME
Spelling

[spamcan61]

I'd be sending that back 'goods not as described'.

[ATME]

Yep, just hope the retailer is not going to be out of pocket. The base station is actually labelled “input 16v” so still wondering if the GM chap thought I was talking about an “Express” unit rather than “Advance”?

[Izzy]

My 14 year old Advance2 has always given 15v, well measured with my basic MM at 14.9v but close enough. Funnily enough I have just moved on to a Z21 to be able to set the voltage to what I want, 12v in my case. But here’s the rub, the specs say it can be adjusted between 12- 24v @ 3amp.  However the supplied PSU in this case is 20v @2.5amp. And the specs say the output voltage will be 1v less than the input, so the range is just 12-19v @2.5amp. Hmm….   So it seems in recent times they all use whatever PSU’s they can obtain, perhaps because of the ongoing supply issues with electronic and other parts. 
 

I can understand that but it still doesn’t seem right, that they don’t highlight the changed specs when it will have a material impact for some users. Fortunately it doesn’t affect what I wanted it for, but I would be extremely annoyed if it had and would be looking for a full refund. Makes you feel kind of cheated. 
 

Bob

Edited March 28 by Izzy

[spamcan61]

8 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 

I can understand that but it still doesn’t seem right, that they don’t highlight the changed specs when it will have a material impact for some users. Fortunately it doesn’t affect what I wanted it for, but I would be extremely annoyed if it had and would be looking for a full refund. Makes you feel kind of cheated. 
 

Bob

Absolutely, seems to me as DCC is becoming more widespread and complex the capabilities of the command station, in terms of Volts and Amps, are becoming more important, yet it seems some manufacturers are going backwards in this respect.

Edited March 28 by spamcan61

[Free At Last]

My Prodigy Advance power supply is labelled 15vDC 3.5A.

Track voltage measured on same MM is 14.6V

[ATME]

Thanks, I might give GM another ring next week and see if I get a different answer to why I have a 13.8v power supply?

[Izzy]

Does the PSU you have state the 3.5amp output or is that different too? Something doesn't seem right/acceptable whatever.

 

Bob

Edited March 28 by Izzy

[ATME]

This is the power supply and what it says on the box…

 

 

[Izzy]

So, lower voltage, higher amps. Certainly doesn’t match the specs but as it also doesn’t have the Gaugemaster label on it as previously the guess has to be it’s the nearest spec they could obtain, well MRC as that’s where they originate from. That’s all I can think. That they were not available for a couple of years on top of that alongside Gaugemaster developing their own systems which are supposed to be arriving sometime soon - along with other makers new offerings, just adds to the mix on widely differing specs versus availability of parts. 
 

But, if you bought it specifically for the rated voltage output, as you did, I’d be asking for a full refund and looking elsewhere. For the cost there are now better specified alternatives with adjustable features, such as the Z21. 
 

Or, get an older secondhand one. I often think of disposing of mine now instead of keeping it as backup so there should be some around. 

 

Bob
 

 

 

 

Edited March 29 by Izzy

[meatloaf]

7 hours ago, ATME said:

This is the power supply and what it says on the box…

 

 

Did you buy new? If not id question if thats the original power brick

[ATME]

Yes it was new.

[matchmaker]

On 29/03/2024 at 15:46, ATME said:

Yes it was new.

Exactly the same as mine - bought new about 2 years ago.

[ATME]

4 hours ago, matchmaker said:

Exactly the same as mine - bought new about 2 years ago.

So you are not getting the advertised track voltage either. I spoke to Gaugemaster again and the very helpful chap indicated that there have been supply issues with the power supplies but the Prodigy Advance would still work. However, I am not convinced the new generation of decoders from some manufacturers are operating to design due to the lower voltage supplied by some DCC systems, primarily in controlling built in keep-alives and speed performance (yes I know we don't all operate TGVs 😁) and I would like to know if the this is actually true and wanted the higher track voltage to rule out any loco/decoder issues? Anyhow, the retailer was happy to give a refund and I am now considering either a Z21 or an ESU ECoS. 

Edited April 9 by ATME

[Izzy]

2 hours ago, ATME said:

and I am now considering either a Z21 or an ESU ECoS. 

 

I got my Z21 just recently at a good price from: https://www.scograil.co.uk/

No handset with them though, that has to be obtained separately. I use a large Android phone as a dedicated throttle. Cheaply bought from Currys. The Z21 app is rather good for use with sound fitted locos but there are several handsets that will work with it if you prefer a rotary dial. The Roco WiFi Maus would be my preferred choice. https://www.coastaldcc.co.uk/  have them in stock (same unit as Scograil but separate business)

 

Bob

 

 

[ATME]

Thanks for that, I’m often in Ipswich.

[spamcan61]

12 hours ago, ATME said:

So you are not getting the advertised track voltage either. I spoke to Gaugemaster again and the very helpful chap indicated that there have been supply issues with the power supplies but the Prodigy Advance would still work. However, I am not convinced the new generation of decoders from some manufacturers are operating to design due to the lower voltage supplied by some DCC systems, primarily in controlling built in keep-alives and speed performance (yes I know we don't all operate TGVs 😁) and I would like to know if the this is actually true and wanted the higher track voltage to rule out any loco/decoder issues? Anyhow, the retailer was happy to give a refund and I am now considering either a Z21 or an ESU ECoS. 

I'd still reject it, the supplied PSU does not meet the command station specification "end of", and given that ESU Loksound v5 chips are specified to work to 14V minimum you're into a potential world of pain and uncertainty using lower track voltages.

Edited April 10 by spamcan61

[Andacami]

Whilst the OP seems to be in the process of resolving the issue and, whilst it's not an acceptable fix in this case, I'm curious,  would an add on power booster resolve the technical issue?

 

Just thinking of my own set up and as I expand could hit this issue ( I'll be checking actual voltages today rather than relying on what's printed on the kit/in the manual).

[ATME]

11 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

I'd still reject it, the supplied PSU does not meet the command station specification "end of", and given that ESU Loksound v5 chips are specified to work to 14V minimum you're into a potential world of pain and uncertainty using lower track voltages.

Has been returned and refunded. Now on the lookout for a Z21 or ECoS.

[Izzy]

11 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

I'd still reject it, the supplied PSU does not meet the command station specification "end of", and given that ESU Loksound v5 chips are specified to work to 14V minimum you're into a potential world of pain and uncertainty using lower track voltages.

 

Is that the decoder or for the three wire stay-alive packs to work with them? I have read that with the Accurscale Manor that voltage was needed before the fitted SA pack would switch on but didn't realise it applied to the ESU decoder as well. Good job I don't have any ESU chips as I've just reduced my track voltage to 12v for less risk of 16v tantalums going 'bang', which I've had happen a couple of times now.

 

Bob

[spamcan61]

51 minutes ago, Izzy said:

 

Is that the decoder or for the three wire stay-alive packs to work with them? I have read that with the Accurscale Manor that voltage was needed before the fitted SA pack would switch on but didn't realise it applied to the ESU decoder as well. Good job I don't have any ESU chips as I've just reduced my track voltage to 12v for less risk of 16v tantalums going 'bang', which I've had happen a couple of times now.

 

Bob

I'm pretty sure it applies to the chip itself, I linked to ESUs specification in a previous thread somewhere. Fair play I wouldn't want to push  a 16V tantalum much beyond 12V, would de-rate voltage by 50% on tantalums in my day job.

[Izzy]

46 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I'm pretty sure it applies to the chip itself, I linked to ESUs specification in a previous thread somewhere. Fair play I wouldn't want to push  a 16V tantalum much beyond 12V, would de-rate voltage by 50% on tantalums in my day job.

 

Thanks, that's good to know. I was advised by several others to reduce the track voltage and is why I then got the Z21 to replace the PA2 with it's fixed 14.9v track output.

 

Bob

 

[Kaput]

Not convinced an ESU decoder needs 14V+ to work otherwise they'd never work in DC mode.

 

The whole thing about the stayalives needing 14V to work is another of these ESU things that doesn't seem to be documented anywhere in ESU's own manual.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On 10/04/2024 at 19:58, Izzy said:

I've just reduced my track voltage to 12v for less risk of 16v tantalums going 'bang', which I've had happen a couple of times now.

DCC is specified for 22V on track, or at least was the last time I looked.

 

Your choice in making such a decision, but if your locos ever 'go visiting'...

[Izzy]

7 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

DCC is specified for 22V on track, or at least was the last time I looked.

 

Your choice in making such a decision, but if your locos ever 'go visiting'...

 

Thank you for your warning. It is highly unlikely any of my stock would/will ever run on other than my own layouts. Since reducing the voltage doesn't impact anything else as far as I am aware, (maybe top speed which is not a concern for me), and it reduces the risk factor, I don't see any reason not to.

 

Bob