Log Cabins/sheds?

[Moley48]

Hi,

 

I am researching everything from the ground up. As well as starting a new anyrail plan for a new layout that should eventually be in a space 22x12ft...

 

I've noticed a few people now are using log cabins for their model layouts. I just want to know how well they have handled the seasons from your first hand experience? 

 

If you have an alternative setup to the log cabin I'd also be interested to hear about your experiences.. 

 

I dont want to go to the expense and hassle of buying and building a large cabin only for it to not be upto the job. 

 

However, at the moment I am looking keenly at the dunster Rhine Grande Log cabin with floor and Roof Insulation only. Standard 45mm log wall thickness.

 

They do a 62mm log with sandwiched insulation at considerably higher cost but may be worth it? Base wise I was considering dunsters progrid as we wont have anything that heavy in there. OR, concrete slabs.

 

I'm not too concerned about expansion issues of a log cabin.

 

 

Alternative to the above idea is get a similarly sized shed and buy insulation for floor, walls and roof and get better overall insulation at a fraction of the cost. But that does come with its own downsides too. 

 

Any thoughts appreciated!

 

 

[Kris]

I can't tell you about using a cabin for a layout but I did have a large cabin installed at a previous work place. We initially went for roof and floor insulation only due to cost. We later added in insulated plasterboard. Doing this with the electric heaters made the space usable year round. 

[Moley48]

 

49 minutes ago, Kris said:

I can't tell you about using a cabin for a layout but I did have a large cabin installed at a previous work place. We initially went for roof and floor insulation only due to cost. We later added in insulated plasterboard. Doing this with the electric heaters made the space usable year round. 

 

Thanks. Whatevers decided in the end it needs to be an improvement over the loft space. The more stable (temps) the better. 

[adb968008]

Interested in a garden office myself, though that website is dog slow.

 

How are you getting it installed, base etc ?

[Moley48]

32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Interested in a garden office myself, though that website is dog slow.

 

How are you getting it installed, base etc ?

 

The site has gone very slow all of a sudden. Its normally OK.

 

Ground prep still looking into. Concrete base or maybe Concrete slabs as I have some 600x600x50's already that I can relocate. Dunster do a progrid that you can fill with pea shingle. I know the cabin wont have a great deal of weight (no heavy machinery with a small footprint) so the grid may be an option providing its man enough (also not sure about degradation).

 

I will do everything myself so saves a few £££s.

Edited April 7 by Moley48

[The Johnster]

I had a loft layout in my teens, loft conversion by Buffalo Bill Enterprises PLC, aka my old man, so I understand your need for temperature stability; the layout expanded and contracted itself to pieces.  An outside building in which you will be spending leisure time that you are supposed to be enjoying yourself in, operating the layout and working on the models, is a case in which the more you spend on insulation the better.  Proper underfloor insulation is particularly important as is damp proofing at floor level. as is good quality roof insulation; don't stint on these!  Use aluminium foil to reflect heat away from the roof in the summer and back into the space in the winter. 

 

Walls, doorways, and windows can be insulated effectively with cheaper materials such as aluminium foil or egg cartons.  Seal window and door frames with mastic.  Don't employ Buffalo Bill's favoured heating method, paraffin stove, or bottled gas because you will be troubled with condensation, appropos which you will need to consider ventilation as well.  Fan heating is not the cheapest but will warm the space quickly and can be used to cool it in hot weather.  The better your insulation the less you will spend on heating, and the more comfortable and welcoming the building will be; this will reflect in both the enjoyment of your hobby and the quality of your modelling.

[Richard_A]

Fwiw, I have been building a shed for a friend's autistic husband to allow him some space to unwind in, I have used 125mm pir in the roof, walls and floor, the temperature is very very stable, which is what you need in any building. 

[Derekl]

I have a Lidget Compton concrete shed on a poured concrete base. The shed comes without insulation. I fitted a laminate floor over insulation, used Gyproc Thermalite insulated wallboard and fitted a thin ply ceiling above which I pushed loft insulation. There are three modest windows and an ordinary door. It has been up since early 2020 and the layout installed since around mid 2020. I use an oil filled radiator (2kW, I think) to heat and a fan to cool. The short answer is that unless you maintain the temperature in winter, it will cool down, and similarly it gets warm in summer, the fan being a modest alleviation. The floor insulation seems to have worked as the floor is never particularly cold, but the cost of maintaining temperature in the depths of winter would be high (I just bring projects inside at that time, and don't run many trains). Without aircon, it is impossible to keep it fully cool in summer, but it is more or less similar to house temperatures for most of summer. 

[duncan]

If you go for a log cabin, I suggest you avoid a door which is almost at the end of the wall.  It can be difficult to ensure that the very short (about a foot long) wall from the door to the corner stays in place & does not drift towards the corner.   I am now considering putting in a tie rod below the door to tie the 2 front corners together.  The short wall is trying to fall off the corner, due to the weight of the whole corner above it.  Just a thought.

[fulton]

I built this myself, 20 years ago, 4" x 2" treated main structure, treated shiplap inside and out, walls floor and roof insulated with vapour barrier, bought in timber double glazed windows, slate roof covering, heats up nicely with a small heater, based on a SER ground frame , I think I spent around £1000 on materials, trade prices, would not like to think of the cost today.

[Portchullin Tatty]

I had (until I moved house recently) a Dunster House log cabin and I know a number of others that also have.  They do a variety of grades; you want to go for the one with the greatest level of insulation to it and double glazing throughout.

 

They are relatively easy to build if you have a moderate amount of DIY nouse but there are stages that need two people and even then it will take a number of  days.  I built mine on old railway sleepers that I supported on concrete pads excavated about 300mm into the ground.  

 

The first year the interior was fairly moist as the timber needs to dry out and season.  So you need to bear this in mind.  After this it was always really comfortable with nothing more than a greenhouse heater bar for comfort.  I was very pleased with it.

 

A view of the inside can be seen here: https://highlandmiscellany.com/2013/01/20/glenmutchkins-part-1-have-summer-house-will-build/ 

[Moley48]

I'm going to look into DIY cost and draw up a bill of materials. The build wont happen that soon anyway so plenty of research time. 

 

 

[Moley48]

Just messing around in CAD -

 

24x16 base. 

 

changed to 2x6 joists.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9 by Moley48

[pheaton]

17 hours ago, Portchullin Tatty said:

I had (until I moved house recently) a Dunster House log cabin and I know a number of others that also have.  They do a variety of grades; you want to go for the one with the greatest level of insulation to it and double glazing throughout.

 

They are relatively easy to build if you have a moderate amount of DIY nouse but there are stages that need two people and even then it will take a number of  days.  I built mine on old railway sleepers that I supported on concrete pads excavated about 300mm into the ground.  

 

The first year the interior was fairly moist as the timber needs to dry out and season.  So you need to bear this in mind.  After this it was always really comfortable with nothing more than a greenhouse heater bar for comfort.  I was very pleased with it.

 

A view of the inside can be seen here: https://highlandmiscellany.com/2013/01/20/glenmutchkins-part-1-have-summer-house-will-build/ 

My layout is in a dunster house log cabin,

 

the advice i would say is if you can afford it go for the thickest logs as this gives a more stable wall, they do move about a lot but eventually settle down, id also avoid (if you can) double doors, as they are a pain to align and keep aligned.

 

Oh and try to avoid building during the winter because that is when the wood will be swollen and expansion gaps are crucial in the roof as they will start to tear the felt which will cause leaks...going forward. i have completely re-roofed mine with tile affect galvanised steel

 

And @duncan makes an excellent point ref the corners!!!! i to suffer with that issue

 

 

Edited April 9 by pheaton

[Nick C]

On 07/04/2024 at 15:31, Moley48 said:

I've noticed a few people now are using log cabins for their model layouts. I just want to know how well they have handled the seasons from your first hand experience? 

I have one, built by the previous owners of our house. It's terrible. You can't insulate the walls, you can't fix anything to the walls (the logs can't be fixed together as they need to be able to expand individually). The doors stick and constantly need adjusting. It's cold and damp in the winter, too hot in the summer. 

 

Basically, if you want a building totally unsuited to building a layout, get a log cabin. If you want something suitable, build it properly, with proper framing and insulation - it'll probably cost you less anyway...

Edited April 10 by Nick C

[Moley48]

29 minutes ago, Nick C said:

I have one, built by the previous owners of our house. It's terrible. You can't insulate the walls, you can't fix anything to the walls (the logs can't be fixed together as they need to be able to expand individually). The doors stick and constantly need adjusting. It's cold and damp in the winter, too hot in the summer. 

 

Basically, if you want a building totally unsuited to building a layout, get a log cabin. If you want something suitable, build it properly, with proper framing and insulation - it'll probably cost you less anyway...

Yes, I'm edging towards a self build. Once I've got a full shed in cad I can determine materials and cost. I've seen people insulate cabins with floating stud work with sliding fixings but I don't fancy that idea. 

[johnofwessex]

For what its worth my brother has a log cabin garage he uses as a workshop which is heated - or cooled by a heat pump

[pheaton]

20 hours ago, Moley48 said:

Yes, I'm edging towards a self build. Once I've got a full shed in cad I can determine materials and cost. I've seen people insulate cabins with floating stud work with sliding fixings but I don't fancy that idea. 

Sorry about the delay @Moley48 weather has been atrocious, and 45149 is resisting all attempts by me to get it ready for a new seasons running...

 

DISCLAIMER...my railway room is a tip and I'm in the middle of dismantling and rebuilding my next layout, but ive made the mistake of trying to plan it properly....so im not getting anywhere :)

 

 

So thats a dunster house double glazed i think it was a modetro cabin, its about 9 years old now, the roof is something i put on last year and ill explain why i took that course of action, its double glazed and its the middle log size (40mm) i think...

 

No rot its stood up well, obviously the bearers on the floor are pressure treated, the rest of the cabin is not...it sits on the dunsterhouse rapid grid system which has pea gravel in it to prevent water build up, air can get underneath the cabin which is essential.

 

As i said double doors is pain....i believe there is a mistake in the frame sizing which leads to a gap at the top, you can adjust the doors (trust me you will need to) the biggest issue in my opinion is they dont have a central pillar they meet in the middle, but they are an absolute pig to align, and i believe i will have to replace these with a set of custom doors at some point soon the other issue is the glazing is far too heavy for the door and its starting to deform it as you can see on the right hand door.

 

 

@duncan eluded to a problem with the corners and we can see they are starting to splay out and i secure these to the frame, trust me the cabin wont collapse it can sometimes create a gap, duncan mentioned a tie rod my problem is higher up so i will probably use 4mm angle iron in the web of the wall.

 

you may not get this issue my problem is i think that corner has sunk by about an inch.

 

 

two views of the inside.....show you the roof configuration, ideal for insulating...but it can mask leaks from the roof which with felt can be common because as the roof expands and contracts it can tear the felt. but there may be ways to avoid this...

 

be prepared to install extra ventilation it can sweat a lot in winter.

 

be prepared for an incredible amount of movement in the first few years, you need to keep on top of it to make sure any gaps between logs that form close up...

 

if i was to do this again...i would use a concrete base, a lot more expensive but much more stable!

 

[Andymsa]

I recently finished expanding my original build of a log cabin, one thing to note about using wood to face the building that to keep it in tip top condition it will need to be treated each year I did mine with sadeling, which i hated doing. When I decided to expand I got rid of the log lap and went with composite board.

 

 

Although nothing wrong with off the shelf, there is what I call the poor workmanship principle and from a material and labour cost it’s more expensive than building yourself. Obviously the more you spend the better end product and end result, so cutting corners is not worth it. The base is very important ok mine is a bit oTT but it will never move as is steel reinforced concrete. Another factor is size and location so do check with the local planning department and if it requires building control, you might get away building it as permitted development. Also think how your get power to it. Heating is done by air conditioning, it is fully insulated so usable all year round.The list can go on and on.

 

this is the new extension area, overall the whole room now has 90sq meters of floor space

 

ps don’t forget security of the outside building, also insurance as most home insurance won’t cover railways in outside buildings.

 

there are a few factors to consider when building such buildings so depending on budget don’t scrimp and if you do decide to buy off the shelf do your research on the company doing it.

 

Edited April 11 by Andymsa

[Andymsa]

43 minutes ago, pheaton said:

Sorry about the delay @Moley48 weather has been atrocious, and 45149 is resisting all attempts by me to get it ready for a new seasons running...

 

DISCLAIMER...my railway room is a tip and I'm in the middle of dismantling and rebuilding my next layout, but ive made the mistake of trying to plan it properly....so im not getting anywhere :)

 

 

So thats a dunster house double glazed i think it was a modetro cabin, its about 9 years old now, the roof is something i put on last year and ill explain why i took that course of action, its double glazed and its the middle log size (40mm) i think...

 

No rot its stood up well, obviously the bearers on the floor are pressure treated, the rest of the cabin is not...it sits on the dunsterhouse rapid grid system which has pea gravel in it to prevent water build up, air can get underneath the cabin which is essential.

 

As i said double doors is pain....i believe there is a mistake in the frame sizing which leads to a gap at the top, you can adjust the doors (trust me you will need to) the biggest issue in my opinion is they dont have a central pillar they meet in the middle, but they are an absolute pig to align, and i believe i will have to replace these with a set of custom doors at some point soon the other issue is the glazing is far too heavy for the door and its starting to deform it as you can see on the right hand door.

 

 

@duncan eluded to a problem with the corners and we can see they are starting to splay out and i secure these to the frame, trust me the cabin wont collapse it can sometimes create a gap, duncan mentioned a tie rod my problem is higher up so i will probably use 4mm angle iron in the web of the wall.

 

you may not get this issue my problem is i think that corner has sunk by about an inch.

 

 

two views of the inside.....show you the roof configuration, ideal for insulating...but it can mask leaks from the roof which with felt can be common because as the roof expands and contracts it can tear the felt. but there may be ways to avoid this...

 

be prepared to install extra ventilation it can sweat a lot in winter.

 

be prepared for an incredible amount of movement in the first few years, you need to keep on top of it to make sure any gaps between logs that form close up...

 

if i was to do this again...i would use a concrete base, a lot more expensive but much more stable!

 

I note you mentioned about felt and ripping, when you need to replace it think about an under felt or tanking membrane which you felt over. Done propley the roof should last many years.

[pheaton]

37 minutes ago, Andymsa said:

I note you mentioned about felt and ripping, when you need to replace it think about an under felt or tanking membrane which you felt over. Done propley the roof should last many years.

Absolutely andy, i think there were two problems, the felt supplied with the cabin was not of the best quality but there is also me overlooking the fact that there was no underfelt or membrane

[Andymsa]

52 minutes ago, pheaton said:

Absolutely andy, i think there were two problems, the felt supplied with the cabin was not of the best quality but there is also me overlooking the fact that there was no underfelt or membrane

when you do replace the felt also paint the roof deck with bituminous paint. This is what I did on my roof deck then tanking membrane then felt underlay then in my case felt shingles.

Edited April 11 by Andymsa

[Moley48]

Thankyou @Phaetonand @Andymsa  

 

Its great to get info from people who have been there and done it!

I did look into the Progrid and pea shingle option for the base but as you have found long term he many not be such a good option. 

 

I will probably go for 600x600x50 concrete slabs instead of poured concrete. It still provides a solid base providing the prep of the foundation is adequate. The cost difference wont be too much of a difference from what I gather between a concrete base and slabs but something solid but semi permanent would be better for me.

 

I like the cabins but I'm also liking the idea of fully custom built shed and built by me without the extra "customisation" cost!  For instance I am considering skylight windows in the apex instead of side windows so I can run the baseboards at a decent height with full backscenes. Also have a centralised double door so I can have a lift up section in a better position when entering the room. 

 

Good insulation all round and ventilation should also mean better performance at similar prices to something inferior. 

 

PD wise I think I will be OK but will probably run it by planning regarding the 50% rule due to two other sheds. If I go 24x16 I am also under 2m from the boundary so a maximum total height of 2.5m which is fine as that makes it less conspicuous to the surrounding area. 

 

I had a trial run on a layout build in the loft but due to a low pitched roof its less than desirable and its not easy now for my dad (who's the main reason for the layout 3yrs ago) to get up/down the loft. 

 

Anything I do now, has to be right from the off. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andymsa]

15 minutes ago, Moley48 said:

Thankyou @Phaetonand @Andymsa  

 

Its great to get info from people who have been there and done it!

I did look into the Progrid and pea shingle option for the base but as you have found long term he many not be such a good option. 

 

I will probably go for 600x600x50 concrete slabs instead of poured concrete. It still provides a solid base providing the prep of the foundation is adequate. The cost difference wont be too much of a difference from what I gather between a concrete base and slabs but something solid but semi permanent would be better for me.

 

I like the cabins but I'm also liking the idea of fully custom built shed and built by me without the extra "customisation" cost!  For instance I am considering skylight windows in the apex instead of side windows so I can run the baseboards at a decent height with full backscenes. Also have a centralised double door so I can have a lift up section in a better position when entering the room. 

 

Good insulation all round and ventilation should also mean better performance at similar prices to something inferior. 

 

PD wise I think I will be OK but will probably run it by planning regarding the 50% rule due to two other sheds. If I go 24x16 I am also under 2m from the boundary so a maximum total height of 2.5m which is fine as that makes it less conspicuous to the surrounding area. 

 

I had a trial run on a layout build in the loft but due to a low pitched roof its less than desirable and its not easy now for my dad (who's the main reason for the layout 3yrs ago) to get up/down the loft. 

 

Anything I do now, has to be right from the off. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

do remember the 50% rule applies to the overall plot size less the main house footprint, if memory serves me correct the distance from boundary is 1 meter under permitted development. Going by your measurement you would require BC. But if it was me I wouldnt bother if you don’t require PC.

 

personally I wouldn’t go the concrete slab route but it’s your shed. My base is basically a raft foundation with a 600 deep and 450 wide with a 300 center section, which has lots of steel reinforcement. One end is 900 deep this is due to a public sewer. This reminds me if there is a sewer near it you will require a build over agreement from the water company. But if your using the slab method I’m not sure about that if you would require it as it wouldn’t be considered permanent structure ie like a garden shed.

 

the frame of my shed is roof grade structural wood which I obtained from the roof truss company as I have proper roof trusses in the roof, an added issue I had was because I was adding to existing a had to have a 7 meter steel beam to also support the roof as I was removing existing walls that supported the existing roof. But in your case you wouldn’t have the same issue.

 

building yourself is much better as you can put those little things in that helps with the layout build 

[Moley48]

thanks again @Andymsa

 

Just out of interest. Anyone used Project timber sheds? It could be modified with insulation of a certain thickness. 

 

https://www.projecttimber.com/garden-sheds/24-x-14-garden-sheds/pressure-treated-traditional-windowless-apex-grandmaster-workshop/#size