Early BR freight stock markings

[Fettster42]

Is there a good guide for all the markings on freight stock? Either on line or a sensibly priced in print book?

Thanks. 

[Mol_PMB]

The Great Central Quorn Wagon group has done some very good blog pages on BR wagon lettering.

 

Try these for starters:

https://quornwagonandwagon.co.uk/2020/05/03/featurette-1-br-goods-vehicle-markings/

https://quornwagonandwagon.co.uk/2020/05/10/featurette-2-br-goods-vehicle-markings/

[Cwmtwrch]

But note that the "Vanfit" code officially never appeared on the wagon in BR days, while, also under BR, Shocvans did not carry the GWR style "Not in Common Use" black plate with branding in white, whilst some other BR codes changed over time. Always approach the livery and markings of anything preserved with caution. If possible use contemporary photographs, not, for example, https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/570027.html which has the wrong code, BR or LMS bauxite livery but no "M" prefix to the number or "LMS" above it to show ownership, odd placement of wording, a white circle which it should not have and an inaccurate "Fyffes" label.

[cctransuk]

13 minutes ago, Cwmtwrch said:

.... the "Vanfit" code officially never appeared on the wagon in BR days ....

 

Really? Can you substantiate your sources for that statement?

 

CJI.

[Mol_PMB]

 

 

From 82e on Flickr, an example of the VANFIT code. 

[Mol_PMB]

And another in the later boxed style, on an older van:

From David Russon on Flickr

[hmrspaul]

 

2 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

But note that the "Vanfit" code officially never appeared on the wagon in BR days

 

 and an inaccurate "Fyffes" label.

Just some of mine https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=vanfit   Includes this double named Shocvan Vanfit https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/paulbartlettsrailwaywagonphotographs/e1737aee1

 

I agree about Heritage railway conserved stock being very unsuitable for copying.  And yes the Banana is a problem, but what is wrong with it having a Fyffes label? Labelling Banana vans was common during the BR period. 

 

And as ever, the OP didn't mention when he is interested in. We seem to have assumed BR period - which is long enough and very complex, but the question is more open than that! nearly 200 years!

Does the Barrowmore site have a copy of the 1959 BR official guide? I've not been able to get into that site for several days. 

 

Paul

Edited April 10 by hmrspaul

[br2975]

2 hours ago, Cwmtwrch said:

But note that the "Vanfit" code officially never appeared on the wagon in BR days, while, also under BR, Shocvans did not carry the GWR style "Not in Common Use" black plate with branding in white, whilst some other BR codes changed over time. Always approach the livery and markings of anything preserved with caution. If possible use contemporary photographs, not, for example, https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/570027.html which has the wrong code, BR or LMS bauxite livery but no "M" prefix to the number or "LMS" above it to show ownership, odd placement of wording, a white circle which it should not have and an inaccurate "Fyffes" label.

.

A few contradictions from my files.....

.

[br2975]

4 hours ago, Fettster42 said:

Is there a good guide for all the markings on freight stock? Either on line or a sensibly priced in print book?

Thanks. 

.

The British Railways publication you probably seek is entitled;

.

"British Railways" BR.87209

-----------------------

"Naming, lettering and telegraph coding of freight rolling stock, including containers, wagon sheets and ropes"

----------------------

"Identification markings and painted colours of freight rolling stock, including containers and wagon sheets"

.

Quite a mouthful

.

I am aware of two 'editions'

One dated 31st. December, 1949

and a second

dated December, 1958 

.

You may be able to find one, or both on the Barrowmore MRG site.

 

 

Edited April 10 by br2975

[Hal Nail]

Some stuff here.

 

https://igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/br/9-br-4864.htm

[41516]

I can't remember who uploaded these orignally, but they are from an older RMWeb thread.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, br2975 said:

A few contradictions from my files.....

 

Can anyone find VANFIT markings Pre-1963/4 i.e. on wagons without the maintenance datapanel and/or without the 'boxed' lettering?

Edited April 11 by 41516

[Sitham Yard]

1 hour ago, 41516 said:

Can anyone find VANFIT markings Pre-1963/4 i.e. on wagons without the maintenance datapanel and/or without the 'boxed' lettering?

From looking at photos I have always reckoned on the VANFIT markings dating from the 1960's.

 

The above diagrams were originally published in, I think, 1949 and were stated to be provisional. Note no mention of black patches as dark grey was envisaged at the time for unfitted vehicles similar to that used by LNER and GWR.    

Andrew 

[41516]

21 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

From looking at photos I have always reckoned on the VANFIT markings dating from the 1960's

That's the conclusion I have reached so far.

Edited April 11 by 41516

[Wheatley]

10 hours ago, br2975 said:

.

A few contradictions from my files.....

.

 

 

I presume they couldn't find the PARTOSHOCKVANFIT stencil. 

Edited April 11 by Wheatley

[keefer]

Can't see a Wagon lettering & numbering volume on the Barrowmore site:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

 

BR9210 'General Instructions No 10A (Revised January 1963)' covering the repainting of repaired freight stock etc. unfortunately does not detail what is to be written - only that the information is to be written in white lettering paint 'in accordance with revised instructions issued April 1963.' (perhaps this is the change mentioned by others above?).

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BR_9210_Repainting_Treatment_web.pdf

Edited April 11 by keefer

[melmoth]

32 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

I presume they couldn't find the PARTOSHOCKVANFIT stencil. 

 

Is it 'self-identifying' or just confused?

[hmrspaul]

2 hours ago, Sitham Yard said:

From looking at photos I have always reckoned on the VANFIT markings dating from the 1960's.

 

The above diagrams were originally published in, I think, 1949 and were stated to be provisional. Note no mention of black patches as dark grey was envisaged at the time for unfitted vehicles similar to that used by LNER and GWR.    

Andrew 

Quite correct, the Scottish archive in Glasgow (IIRC ) has a set of RCH drawings from c1950 onwards for all the different markings and positioning that were introduced as the years went by. I have copies of some of these, but couldn't afford to buy copies of all of them. 

 

Just as a noticeable example on the drawings published above is a gap between the M and the number, and that doesn't appear to have been maintained. 

VANFIT is a telegraph code in BR87209 Dec 1958 but not a marking on the wagon. That appears to have altered with the introduction of the new boxed style.

 

1 hour ago, keefer said:

Can't see a Wagon lettering & numbering volume on the Barrowmore site:

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/Prototype.html

 

BR9210 'General Instructions No 10A (Revised January 1963)' covering the repainting of repaired freight stock etc. unfortunately does not detail what is to be written - only that the information is to be written in white lettering paint 'in accordance with revised instructions issued April 1963.' (perhaps this is the change mentioned by others above?).

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/BR_9210_Repainting_Treatment_web.pdf

Shame, not on Barrowmore site (I managed to get in this morning). It has been copied on various wagon discussion IO groups. 

 

Yes, I believe April 1963 is the introduction of boxed style of writing, which also appears to have led to more of the hidden telegraph codes becoming a descriptor on the wagons including VANFIT (but not all. TOAD is a well known code for brake vans (not just GWR and LNER ones but all) but if it was written on a van it was very rare. Note that this change predates the new corporate image, but was included once that was publicised and the manual issued. There were various experiments before the April 1964 change, some of the officials are on my site. 

 

5 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Some stuff here.

 

https://igg.org.uk/rail/6-livy/br/9-br-4864.htm

Be cautious with this, not very accurate. Just look at Presflow. What is a Presflow??  And the number given as an example B884050 [a number I believe was never used]. 

 

As to very early BR writing on wagons. There is a period when they simply added E, M, W, S to the old number without much other rewriting. And the original style of lettering used by the Companies remained - so LMR new build got the broad face used by the LMS. Also repairing / renewing the writing is more common than repainting (which increasingly just simply got ignored - look at my website with black departmentals in the 1970s and 80s (livery went to Gulf Red another finish that survived into the 1990s)). 

 

Paul

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Just my distant memory, but on early 1960's BR wagons the 'FIT' suffix only appeared consistently on the BR LOWFIT.

 

[Cwmtwrch]

13 hours ago, hmrspaul said:

And yes the Banana is a problem, but what is wrong with it having a Fyffes label?

Nothing at all, but what's on the van is not what the actual label looked like. I suspect that it's painted as well, rather than a paper label...🙂 Your photos B881061_BANANA__m_at Staines Central 67-01-04 and B880681_BANANA__m_at Southampton Docks 69-04-17 respectively show the earlier and later labels.

7 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

VANFIT is a telegraph code in BR87209 Dec 1958 but not a marking on the wagon.

Which is the same as the 12/1949 edition [I have both].

10 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Yes, I believe April 1963 is the introduction of boxed style of writing, which also appears to have led to more of the hidden telegraph codes becoming a descriptor on the wagons including VANFIT

Mea culpa. Being interested in the period circa 1960, I tend to overlook the "boxed" era. I presume that the use of Vanfit was short lived, replaced by the TOPS code VVV as shown on one of the other vans in the photographs?

[hmrspaul]

1 hour ago, Cwmtwrch said:

 

Mea culpa. Being interested in the period circa 1960, I tend to overlook the "boxed" era. I presume that the use of Vanfit was short lived, replaced by the TOPS code VVV as shown on one of the other vans in the photographs?

What we need is a version of BR87209 from 1963. Whether such a thing existed I know not. Clearly more telegraph codes were to be shown on the actual wagons, but as the TOAD suggests not on all. What got a visible name is quite a moveable feast on BR. We are all aware that most of the aquatic departmental names were shown from early on, but between us no one has seen the use of STARFISH (for the uninitiated the small 10t all steel ballast wagon based on a GWR design that goes back to the beginning of the last century). 

 

Paul

[Wheatley]

I suspect the reason for VANFIT not appearing on wagons at first (or at least not very often) is because they were in the majority so branding was only necessary to identify brown vans which weren't VANFITs. 

 

[Fettster42]

@br2975 @keefer thanks. I think that's exactly what I was looking for!! I'll hunt through and read appropriate documents. 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Wheatley said:

I suspect the reason for VANFIT not appearing on wagons at first (or at least not very often) is because they were in the majority so branding was only necessary to identify brown vans which weren't VANFITs. 

 

 

But there should not have been ANY brown vans that were not fitted or piped.

 

Non-fitted vans should have been painted grey.

 

CJI.

[Wheatley]

I meant the majority of brown vans were bog standard VANFITs, so only the PARTOs, SHOCKVANs, PALVANs, MOGOs, MEAT, FRUIT, FISH and others which were oddities needed to be identified to stop yard staff routinely nicking them to load potatoes or anything else which didn't need a specialist vehicle.  Anything else brown, van shaped and unbranded - the vast majority -  was a VANFIT by default. 

 

In the same way that no-one initially considered it necessary to paint MIN 16 on the hundreds of thousands of steel  16 tonners because if it didn't say IRON ORE TIPPLER on it what else would it be ? 

 

Edited April 11 by Wheatley

[Wickham Green too]

48 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

But there should not have been ANY brown vans that were not fitted or piped. ...

How many piped vehicles survived at that time without having gained 'proper' vac-brakes ? ...... I've certainly never heard of a VANPIPE or similar coding !