Why are these units going back and forth at Fort William?

[nightstar.train]

I've come across this really weird working on Real Time Trains. It seems to scheduled for every evening. The train starts in the station, goes out to the junction, back to station, to junction then back to the station finally. 

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W60888/2024-04-15/detailed#allox_id=0

 

It has actual times listed for last night so does seem to have run, it isn't some sort of ghost working. 

[Michael Hodgson]

The formation is interesting too 4 x 2 car units, 156493 + 156493 + 156477 + 156477 - with the running numbers duplicated

['CHARD]

It's swapping from platform 1 to 2 for some operational purpose. 

[25kV]

Reminds me of the strange ScotRail HST turn last year - Aberdeen to Aberdeen via Inverurie Turnback Siding, which ran in the evenings empty stock.

 

 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

The timetable planner is a railway modeller with a small boxfile layout of a terminus station with two platforms and a rather limited fiddle yard. One of their regular moves is to take a train out of platform 1 and then bring the same train back into platform 2. Sometimes they forget to change the points so the train ends up back in platform 1 and they have to take it out again, remember to change the points this time, and then bring the train back into platform 2.

 

At one exhibition, a punter watching this series of moves was heard to remark, "Not very prototypical, is it?" The owner-operator thought "Right. That's it! I'll show them," and so 5Y58 1955 Fort William to Fort William via Fort William was born.

 

How long it will last is another matter. The driver doesn't much mind the second leg, where they might actually be doing something useful, but the first out and back from Platform 1 means they miss the end of Emmerdale on the telly in the mess. I've heard that they've had words with S&T for how to frig things so the train is reported as leaving from and returning to platform 1 while the driver is still sat drinking tea.

 

The S&T guy is also a railway modeller and, like many S&T people, is something of an electronics enthusiast. His mind quickly progressed from thinking about interferring with track circuits to wondering what he might do with a shuttle module for automatically reversing the train at Fort William Junction. Watch this space.

['CHARD]

Brilliant!

[Dungrange]

What I don't understand is why it starts from Platform 1 and goes back to Platform 1 before ending up at Platform 2.  I initially wondered if it was a refuelling turn based on the booked times, but clearly the actual times indicate that's not the case.  I also wondered if it was to swap the order or the units (ie so that the same unit as was leading on the way into Fort William from Mallaig, was also leading on the journey south from Fort William despite the reversal at Fort William), but again, that doesn't look likely from the timings and would require the first move to be back to Platform 2.  

 

However, what I find even more interesting is the actual timings for the 12 April, because in this instance, the unit terminates in Platform 2 at 19:42 - 8 minutes before the Caledonian Sleeper left Platform 2 at 19:50.  This doesn't make sense as the terminating 5Y58 would have blocked the departing 1B01.

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:FTW/2024-04-12/1955?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

[adb968008]

 

 

1. The sleeper stock arrives 6pm reversing into P2.

2. the first Jacobite arrives at 1908, into p1 clears the platform asap for the 

3. inbound SR from Mallaig which also goes to P1 at 1937 as the Sleeper is still occupying P2 

4. After the sleeper departs,

5. the ecs relocates to P2 So that In the summer

6. the evening WCRC trip then arrives back into P1 (1 coach shorter in the evening) before the last Mallaig departs).

 

I guess they keep the ecs running for consistency out of season.

 

I dont know why the jacobite uses p1, it does have the loop, but the timetable suggests the runroad is done in the yard, does the southbound  CS require p2 for any specific reason ?

 

Its this working I dont get..

 

FTW p2 to FTW p2, with no other workings inbetween..

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W60882/2024-04-16/detailed#allox_id=0

 

Is this a warm up or something ?

 

 

Edited April 16 by adb968008

[nightstar.train]

I have a theory as to why they do this, but I'd need a full carriage working diagram to confirm. It goes FTW to FTW to change platforms, as others have said. But the reason it does it twice is to swap the front and rear units. Although it's shown as one train on RTT it is actually two, front unit goes out and back to P2, then the rear unit does the same and they swap position. This done to allow units to rotate through the works when they reach Glasgow. 

 

That's my theory, that fits the circumstances. Another possibility is to allow the bike wagon to change ends when it's being used in the summer. Although why they'd keep doing it in the winter, practice maybe? 

[PerthBox]

3 hours ago, 25kV said:

Reminds me of the strange ScotRail HST turn last year - Aberdeen to Aberdeen via Inverurie Turnback Siding, which ran in the evenings empty stock.

That move was needed to free up a platform at Aberdeen for a Network Rail test train path, so it only had to happen when the test train was running (every 4 weeks from memory).

[Dungrange]

1 hour ago, nightstar.train said:

I have a theory as to why they do this, but I'd need a full carriage working diagram to confirm. It goes FTW to FTW to change platforms, as others have said. But the reason it does it twice is to swap the front and rear units. Although it's shown as one train on RTT it is actually two, front unit goes out and back to P2, then the rear unit does the same and they swap position. This done to allow units to rotate through the works when they reach Glasgow

 

That's what I was thinking, although dismissed is as not quite fitting.  That movement would be:

 

Platform 1 to Junction (unit 1)

Junction to Platform 2

Platform 1 to Junction (unit 2)

Junction to Platform 2

 

The units would then be in a different order.

 

However, what's shown is:

 

Platform 1 to Junction

Junction to Platform 1

Platform 1 to Junction

Junction to Platform 2

 

However, looking at these two sequences, the only difference is the second line.  Effectively lines 2 and 3 appear as the same entry in Realtime Trains (an arrival and departure), and presumably Realtime Trains can only display one platform where we effectively have two trains using the same head code.  It therefore looks like Realtime Trains is displaying the departing platform.  I'd therefore agree that this is probably the most likely operational reason.

[TheSignalEngineer]

6 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The formation is interesting too 4 x 2 car units, 156493 + 156493 + 156477 + 156477 - with the running numbers duplicated

I think someone got their fingers in the wrong places doing some keyboard work. There's also an instance earlier in the day of 477+493 departing Fort William for Mallaig whilst 477 was shown at Corrour on a Mallaig - Glasgow working at the same time.

 

As there don't seem to be any conflicting moves at the station I did wonder if it was running a taxi service to the staff car park.

[DCB]

Looks like a Taxi service from the free car parking at the Junction as by the station its pay and display or supermarket (Morrisons)  3 hr max.

Or... The Mallaig trains are often 4 car 2 X 2 units and the Glasgow  1X 2 car units .  The units arrive as a pair from Mallaig and one remains at the buffers while the other heads for Glasgow picking up another at Crianlarich to arrive at Queen St as a 2 +2.
At some stage the units need to be swapped so the same one does not continually shuttle FY to Mallaig until it runs out of fuel.
 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 16/04/2024 at 21:49, Dungrange said:

However, looking at these two sequences, the only difference is the second line.  Effectively lines 2 and 3 appear as the same entry in Realtime Trains (an arrival and departure), and presumably Realtime Trains can only display one platform where we effectively have two trains using the same head code.  It therefore looks like Realtime Trains is displaying the departing platform.  I'd therefore agree that this is probably the most likely operational reason.

The WTT for the area only shows the move out from the station to the junction, but in the Excel version available on the internet the way the times have been input for all trains in and out of Fort William brings up an error as both entries for Fort William Junction show the same time. Realtime Trains used to go into a glitch in such situations. We used to have one on the Dinting Triangle when some trains that went Broadbottom -Dinting - Hadfield - Glossop - Dinting - Broadbottom or vice versa were shown as one path from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Piccadilly. 

[rogerzilla]

During their current spat with the ORR, WCRC is running ECS trains in place of the Jacobite to avoid losing the path (in the same way that airlines fly empty planes to avoid losing valuable Heathrow landing slots).  It's moronic.

Edited April 18 by rogerzilla

[TheSignalEngineer]

Going back to the multiple moved logged by RTT, I think that it could be down to the reporting points in TRUST and other systems. When it comes to old signalling like the area at the junction that would be station limits it's not possible to get them everywhere and they have to be related to a timing point in the timetable. Doing a double shunt at the Junction could trick the computer into thinking that a set has gone back to the platform although it has only gone part way during during reversing the order.

 

[black and decker boy]

It’s been stated elsewhere that all signalling actual timing information is manually inputted by the signaller on the RETB system in the Highlands.

 

thats why the Black 5 that stalled at Glenfinnan the other day was shown in RTT as reaching Mallaig (along with a Scotrail train I think even though tgat never left FTW).

[black and decker boy]

11 hours ago, rogerzilla said:

During their current spat with the ORR, WCRC is running ECS trains in place of the Jacobite to avoid losing the path (in the same way that airlines fly empty planes to avoid losing valuable Heathrow landing slots).  It's moronic.

WC have been carrying fare paying passengers on the Jacobite all this week. 
 

They are using a mish mash rake to utilise a loophole. Formation is CDL fitted MK2 - MK1 with all doors locked OOU - CDL fitted MK2 - MK1 with all doors locked OOU - CDL fitted MK2 - MK1 with all doors locked OOU - CDL fitted MK2

[Covkid]

I watched a youtube video of a guy staying in the Corrour station "guest house" this week and he filmed or photographed most of the trains through there.  I was surprised because I expected the class 156s to be single units but the majority were pairs.  

 

UK's most remote station! Corrour on the West Highland Line offers hiking and dogs. (youtube.com)

Edited April 22 by Covkid

[keefer]

As featured in the film Trainspotting when Tommy suggests they 'go for a walk'😄 on Rannoch Moor.

Also known as MAMBA country (miles and miles of b*gger all)