Pikey Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 Last week my layout randomly shut itself down and refused to start up again. My layout is DCC with an ESU ECoS controller and Megapoints servo-operated points. Most point frogs are switched by corresponding relay boards, but for various reasons I also have 2 Tam Valley hex frog juicers which have worked fine (I presume) for 3-4 years, but last week one of them seems to have suffered total failure, which is causing a short circuit if I try and plug it back in. I can see two of the resistors have not completely melted but certainly have got very hot, on output 4. There are signs of this on outputs 2 and 3 as well, but 4 looks the worst. 1 5 and 6 appear as new. Pics below: I bought it from CoastalDCC in 2020. After emailing them, I've received a pretty unsatisfactory reply saying 'an actual short circuit on one of the outputs can take the unit out', which surprises me as there's nothing on their website or the Tam Valley website about this. Also, if there is ever a real short circuit, my ECoS shuts the power off immediately, so I cant see how this is possible - and in any case I was running a single train on a part of the layout not affected by this frog juicer when the failure happened. Has anyone else ever had one of these fail? Was it repairable / can they be repaired? And would I send it back to CoastalDCC for repair (or rather, for them to send it to Tam Valley for repair)? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 It can be mended but may well cost more than a new one 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 7 hours ago, Pikey said: I bought it from CoastalDCC in 2020. After emailing them, I've received a pretty unsatisfactory reply saying 'an actual short circuit on one of the outputs can take the unit out', which surprises me as there's nothing on their website or the Tam Valley website about this. Also, if there is ever a real short circuit, my ECoS shuts the power off immediately, so I cant see how this is possible... It doesn't help the case, but the explanation is simple. The DCC system protects against a short on the rails and up to the decoder input, by detection of a large 'instant' rise in current draw. Failing electronics usually don't generate this effect, and the DCC system has necessarily to tolerate current draw variation up to its rated output. 7 hours ago, kev said: It can be mended but may well cost more than a new one Honesty time, I have been very pleasantly suprised at the robustness of DCC decoders and the like: these are low cost consumer electronics. The occasional failure has to be accepted in my opinion. Not long had a Zimo MX 618 go 'phut' pretty spectacularly, my first ever failure from a Zimo decoder after over 15 years using their product. And the DCC system didn't trip out as the magic blue smoke escaped and the loco slid to a halt, while everything else running kept going. As suggested by Kev return to manufacturer for repair is almost certainly uneconomic... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 Low cost? This isn't a DCC decoder - these boards cost nearly £80... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingEdwardII Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 13 minutes ago, Pikey said: these boards cost nearly £80... Makes me feel a lot happier that I use point motors with a built in switch to handle the frog polarity... Yours, Mike. 3 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted April 18 Author Share Posted April 18 I have used Cobalts on my exhibition layout, they're excellent. But that layout has 4 sets of points - my home layout has over 40, and some of them require more than two associated switches, which is one of the reasons why I didnt use them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Dominion Posted April 18 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 18 I have had 5 Tam Valley hex frog boards in use for several years. They are all still working fine luckily. I hope you can figure out what caused your issue. I did not get them from coastal DCC as I am in Canada so could get them closer but I have sourced lots of other things from them and I find Kevin to be very knowledgable and very helpful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 I use Tam Valley Mono juicers. Yes my layout only has 5 switches (points/turnouts) so altogether 5 mono juicers cost more than one Hex, but they are spread out around the layout (17' x 8') and I was conscious of the advice to keep the wiring as short as possible. I have had one juicer fail in about 8 years, at least it was easy to replace, I keep a spare in hand 'just in case'. I second any recomendations for Kev at Coastal DCC, very helpful & quick service. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted April 19 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 19 I have various types of Tam Valley frog juicers on numerous layouts for many years and no failures so far. It could be that these rarely fall hence not much info out there. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted April 19 Author Share Posted April 19 Looking at the Tam Valley website, it says they can repair most damage to boards that are out of warranty for $25. Given that it will fit in a Large Letter sized jiffy bag, and postage to the USA is only a few pounds, I think I'll post it directly back to them for, hopefully, a repair which will be much cheaper than buying a new one 🙂 I have two spare Gaugemaster DCC80 'Autofrogs', and a couple of spare relays on the Megapoints system, so with a few hours of wiring buggeration I can get 4 of the 6 frogs powered by this juicer back up and running in the meantime. Avoiding such buggeration was one of the reasons I bought the frog juicers in the first place, but never mind. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Contact Tam Valley directly to check before sending. That's a North American applicable price would be my first thought. (Been there many times in my career, such service only available outside the USA/Canada via the appointed Agent in Europe is typical.) If you get the go ahead, it may be necessary to enclose proof of purchase in the UK to travel home with it, to avoid VAT on the 'imported' repaired piece. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted April 19 Author Share Posted April 19 Its less than £135 so I wouldn't be charged anything as far as I know, although maybe that only applies to EU purchases (?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 Don't know, not up to speed on this any more. My last time purchasing a s/h model railway item from the USA for $30 resulted in a total demand for £120 on arrival in the UK. I walked away, needless to say. Be cautious is all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted April 19 Share Posted April 19 8 hours ago, Pikey said: Its less than £135 so I wouldn't be charged anything as far as I know, although maybe that only applies to EU purchases (?) Like 34C says, check first, especially as it's an item you've already bought being sent. I vaguely recall on here some years ago an issue someone had returning a loco to the USA for attention, and getting charged VAT on it's purchase value again when it was returned to the UK. Also a story of Bachmann US outline models not being covered by 'free' warranty repairs when bought outside the USA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted May 1 Author Share Posted May 1 Postage cost £4.20 so I've ~nothing to lose by sending it back to Tam Valley. I've sent them an email letting them know and asking for it to be assessed and a quote for repair and return postage. Fingers crossed... 🙂 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted May 9 Author Share Posted May 9 I have today received a Paypal invoice for $25, and a note to say some transistors and resistors have been replaced, and the unit is tested and working again 🙂 So that's good news, hopefully customs won't charge me a fortune to get it back. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium peterm1 Posted May 10 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 10 Hopefully the sender will make it clear that it's a faulty unit that's been repaired. Did you enclose a copy of your receipt so they could send it back with the unit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted May 20 Author Share Posted May 20 Received small jiffy bag on Saturday containing a repaired frog juicer 😀 It is now back running on my layout. 3 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Gilbert Posted May 20 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 20 1 hour ago, Pikey said: Received small jiffy bag on Saturday containing a repaired frog juicer 😀 It is now back running on my layout. Excellent news and what sounds like good customer service.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted May 20 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 20 I believe there are a couple of paces in the UK that would do this repair. Digitrains in Lincoln is worth a try? No idea of costs if they do it, but you won't get caught with fees and the post to the US etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 It is hard to repair this type of equipment economically and provide a guarantee. Tam Valley will most likely have a good supply of parts they have obtained at bulk pricing, and good knowledge of the common failure modes so will be able to easily diagnose the fault. $25 was a good deal on getting it repaired. The burnt resistors are most likely a symptom of the fault rather than the cause. It is well worth checking the wiring going to the frog juicers and the track feeds to the points to ensure that there are no high impedances - high impedance wiring will result in slow switching of the juicer and more heating of the components than is necessary. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted May 21 Author Share Posted May 21 All the wires going to it are the same - except some of them are quite long. I'm not familiar with the term 'impedence', and a quick google has left me none the wiser. Would a long wire have more impedance than a short wire? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted May 21 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 21 13 hours ago, Suzie said: It is hard to repair this type of equipment economically and provide a guarantee. Tam Valley will most likely have a good supply of parts they have obtained at bulk pricing, and good knowledge of the common failure modes so will be able to easily diagnose the fault. $25 was a good deal on getting it repaired. The burnt resistors are most likely a symptom of the fault rather than the cause. It is well worth checking the wiring going to the frog juicers and the track feeds to the points to ensure that there are no high impedances - high impedance wiring will result in slow switching of the juicer and more heating of the components than is necessary. True, but after postage and costs to/from the US it's almost the same as a new one here isn't it? I've no idea what they cost these days. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 1 hour ago, Pikey said: I'm not familiar with the term 'impedence', and a quick google has left me none the wiser. This is the term for all mechanisms causing reduction in electrical conductivity, not solely resistance, but also other effects such as inductance. 1 hour ago, Pikey said: Would a long wire have more impedance than a short wire? Yes, for any given cross section of the same straight wire, due to simple resistance which will increase in direct proportion to length. But if the short wire were wound around an iron core, the inductance this would cause with any variation in voltage - the common example being AC - then it might well have greater impedance than a longer piece of the same wire. There's more, much more, if you want to know here's a 'starter for ten' (though questions based on this are rare even on University Challenge nowadays...) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetism 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikey Posted May 21 Author Share Posted May 21 1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said: True, but after postage and costs to/from the US it's almost the same as a new one here isn't it? I've no idea what they cost these days. P The repair was much much cheaper than a new one - $25 for the repair and return postage (just under £20), plus £4.20 for me to post to the USA. A new one is £79 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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