The Dean brake tricomposite and brake composite (and Slips too) appreciation thread

[drduncan]

Following an illuminating thread drift over in the 3 plank appreciation thread, here is a place to discuss William Dean’s brake tricomposite and brake composite designs such as

Low roofed bogie coach designs such as the E19

Clerestory roofed bogie coaches such as the E9

Low roofed 4 and 6 wheel or Clerestory 6 wheel designs.

 

Prototypes and models come forth and multiply.

 

However, no Collett creations or Hawksworth heresies please…

 

I now call on the congregation rejoice in the word of brother @Penrhos1920

 

May the Dean coaches be with you, now and always, built at Swindon.

DrDuncan

Edited April 19 by drduncan
Typo

[Brassey]

Dr Duncan,  as I model the North to West line, the most common coach that featured by far was GWR brake composite both corridor and non-corridor and thus they are high on my build list.  IIRC, in Mr. Churchward's paper reproduced in Russell, he states that brake composites were introduced as through coaches (to the North).  By my period (1912) 2nd class had gone so no active tri-comps though no doubt some compartments were still labelled 2nd class.

 

However, brake composites are largely ignored by the trade and one has to look hard to find any kits, so I will be following this thread with interest.

 

I do have some in my stash but have yet to build any.  I am however becoming more familiar with the joys of the Dean 6'4" and 8'6" bogies and their scroll irons.  Here to whet the appetite are some Dean carriages at the end of their journey deep into LNWR territory at Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[drduncan]

Here is an E19 with oil lamps. 

Its interesting how low the rain trip is, perhaps only 3 inches or so at its max extent from the gutter. I'm going to have to modify the roof of my E19 3d print. Incidentally, does any one have information about rain strips; is there a rule for whether they are single or double, for example?

Duncan

[drduncan]

On the basis that a slip coach is a brake tri-composite or brake composite with a fancy coupling and special brake arrangements, I feel it would be unfair to exclude Dean slip coaches from this thread, so get (diag) F'ing on with it...

D 

[Mikkel]

From my "Trains worth modelling" folder. With apologies to Churchward 🙂

 

 

Pembroke & Tenby line. Source: Embedded link from Pembroke & Monkton Local History Society.

 

[Harlequin]

This is the current state of my Dean 8ft 6in bogie CAD based on the drawings in Russell:

 

There are a few things that I know are not right.

 

[bécasse]

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

From my "Trains worth modelling" folder. With apologies to Churchward 🙂

 

 

Pembroke & Tenby line. Source: Embedded link from Pembroke & Monkton Local History Society.

 

A very typical GWR train, no two carriages the same, modellers please note!

[phil_sutters]

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

From my "Trains worth modelling" folder. With apologies to Churchward 🙂

 

 

Pembroke & Tenby line. Source: Embedded link from Pembroke & Monkton Local History Society.

 

I thought so 50+ years ago.  "There are a few things that I know are not right"!!! but I was but a lad.

Edited April 19 by phil_sutters

[Neal Ball]

20 hours ago, Harlequin said:

This is the current state of my Dean 8ft 6in bogie CAD based on the drawings in Russell:

 

There are a few things that I know are not right.

 

 

Wow! - presumably thats the CAD, what are the test prints like?

 

Excellent work.

[Brassey]

Here's the carriage diagram for the 10:17 Crewe to Plymouth including 8 GW Brake Compos and one Midland some of which presumably were attached at Bristol.  One solitary LNWR Van Third which went on to Penzance.  I have a picture of somewhere of an LNWR coach at Penzance. 

 

[Brassey]

Here's another photo of GWR carriage at Lime Street that I put on FB to try to identify.  This looks like a slip but quite what a slip is doing at Lime Street one wonders.  IIRC a functioning slip would have reservoirs on the roof.  This hasn't but it could be something like a Falmouth Coupe which had windows in the end but got slip apparatus later.  There was no slipping on the LNWR and we'll never know why it got to Lime Street but maybe that's why it was photographed.  Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.

 

[Andy Keane]

Here are the Helston photos:

[Schooner]

On 19/04/2024 at 09:01, drduncan said:

Here is an- E19 with oil lamps  -other 850 

 

...not that I'm trying to install into every Church of Appreciation a shrine to the Armstrong's Terrier of the West, or anything...

 

:)

[Compound2632]

On 20/04/2024 at 13:09, Brassey said:

Here's the carriage diagram for the 10:17 Crewe to Plymouth including 8 GW Brake Compos and one Midland some of which presumably were attached at Bristol.  

 

Exciting! (Apologies for thread drift!) What does note A say? Equally exciting is that the Midland brake compo for Plymouth has come from Bradford hand-in-hand with a Great Western brake compo for Kingswear. What date is this?

Edited April 22 by Compound2632

[Brassey]

9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Exciting! (Apologies for thread drift!) What does note A say? Equally exciting is that the Midland brake compo for Plymouth has come from Bradford hand-in-hand with a Great Western brake compo for Kingswear. What date is this?

 

A is brake end trailing

B is brake end leading

X is corridor

"70" is 70 feet stock i.e. non Dean

 

The date is July 1912

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Brassey said:

The date is July 1912

 

The Midland's North & West carriage marshalling book for July - September 1911 [Midland Railway Study Centre item 00615] shows this same pair of carriages from Bradford, except that the Midland carriage is allegedly a corridor composite rather than brake composite. However, most Bain 54 ft composites and brake composites had at least one half-compartment. The only diagram I can find with two first and three third class compartments (each seating four and six passengers respectively) is D472, ten brake composites built as lot 686 in 1909; these were to the reduced height of 12' 8" to clear the Met loading gauge. 

 

This has the Great Western brake compo as a corridor carriage whereas in your 1912 document it appears not to be. But two first class compartments seating 10 and four thirds seating 28 is strongly suggestive of a non-corridor lavatory carriage. The E39 Falmouth Coupe as seen in the Lime St photo above would fit, I think?

 

 

[Coach bogie]

For those wo are not aware there is a 6 wheel  tricomp , still around. until recently, I could take a short trip to Shildon to see. It has now been passed on to Didcot.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

[Brassey]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... except that the Midland carriage is allegedly a corridor composite rather than brake composite...This has the Great Western brake compo as a corridor carriage whereas in your 1912 document it appears not to be. 

 

Unsurprisingly, there are some inconsistencies between the diagrams (and timetables) of different companies.  The one I quoted is from the GWR but the LNWR/GWR Joint Line published their own as did the LNWR.  I have spotted the odd discrepancy but they are quite rare.  For example, a brake van left Euston for Merthyr but when it got to Shrewsbury it had become a Parcel Van.  I think there was an overriding brief that a corridor coach should be used for such trains. 

 

In the days before computers and the internet it must have been a challenge to co-ordinate all these movements between all the independent rail companies.  And for this reason I guess the timetables didn't change much year upon year once established.  I'm told that all the clerks got together at Earlestown once a year to thrash all this out.

[Brassey]

On 21/04/2024 at 09:51, Brassey said:

...This looks like a slip but quite what a slip is doing at Lime Street one wonders.  IIRC a functioning slip would have reservoirs on the roof.  This hasn't but it could be something like a Falmouth Coupe which had windows in the end but got slip apparatus later.  There was no slipping on the LNWR and we'll never know why it got to Lime Street but maybe that's why it was photographed.  Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.

 

I've never taken much notice of slips and their workings but when you think about it, once they got to their slipped destination, they were then treated as any other carriage and marshalled into trains onwards as such. 

 

Dragging myself through the July 1912 slip workings, there were a couple of portions a day that were slipped at Wellington off trains heading for Birkenhead.  These made their way then from Wellington to Manchester via Crewe (and presumably Shrewsbury) to be returned to Paddington the next morning direct from Manchester and the cycle began again.  So there was probably a similar circuit, in another timetable, going to Liverpool.  So a slip portion was probably not such a rarity at Lime Street after all.  

[Brassey]

On 21/04/2024 at 09:51, Brassey said:

Here's another photo of GWR carriage at Lime Street that I put on FB to try to identify.  This looks like a slip … Anyway I've got an excuse to build one now.

 

Looking through my stash, I have both a Bettabitz F9 Slip and a Falmouth Coupe.  So no excuse. 

 

I also have L10 Parcel Van and a PeterK TPO clerestory both of which could have run on the joint line. All these are sides only. 
 

Better get building. 

[Coach bogie]

 

Mike, looks impressive.  so how long does it take you to build such a carriage? - I have a few Worsley Works carriages in my stash too.

 

Peter

 

Answer from 3 planks thread

 

I soldered and glued the E40 together in two days while my wife was working away in Canberra - no interruptions! it will take me a week to paint having to leave each colour to dry for a day or so before continuing. plus an evening to fix in grab and door handles.  It is why I have several projects on the go. Coaches with recessed doors take an additional day.

 

I have built several Worsley using the Hornby clerestory as a basis which only takes and evening to get to this stage.

 

 

 

The C16 below is what the Hornby clerestory should look like. The Bettabitz and Hornby C15 both represent the coach, as built. It only lasted a very short time in their condition before being rebuilt to an all 3rd, then again taking out the centre toilets to make another 3rd compartment (3rd class passengers did not need 4 toilets!). Again an evening to make.

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Andy Keane]

On 20/04/2024 at 13:09, Brassey said:

Here's the carriage diagram for the 10:17 Crewe to Plymouth

Forgive my ignorance but where can one get sight of these sorts of tables? Might they exist for services along branch lines like Helston in the Edwardian period?

[Brassey]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Forgive my ignorance but where can one get sight of these sorts of tables? Might they exist for services along branch lines like Helston in the Edwardian period?

The carriage diagrams for local services are as rare as hens’ teeth. Main line diagrams less rare but all harder to find than Service Timetables. The one I quoted from is at the National Archive in Kew. They may have West Country branch line diagrams. Suggest searching the archive online. 
 

I am lucky in that I model the joint line and the diagrams are in the LNWR Society archives. 

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Brassey said:

The carriage diagrams for local services are as rare as hens’ teeth. Main line diagrams less rare but all harder to find than Service Timetables. The one I quoted from is at the National Archive in Kew. They may have West Country branch line diagrams. Suggest searching the archive online. 
 

I am lucky in that I model the joint line and the diagrams are in the LNWR Society archives. 

Do you recall the catalogue reference for the diagram? I have been looking through it but I cannot see any obvious diagrams, but maybe that is not how the catalogue refers to them? The closest I can find is “Diagrams of Carriages Nos.25761A-140265” but I have no idea what that might contain.

Edited April 27 by Andy Keane

[Brassey]

20 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Do you recall the catalogue reference for the diagram? I have been looking through it but I cannot see any obvious diagrams, but maybe that is not how the catalogue refers to them? The closest I can find is “Diagrams of Carriages Nos.25761A-140265” but I have no idea what that might contain.

The document is "programme of working of coaches in through trains".  The only reference I can find in my stuff is RAIL 264 but looking online that appears to be staff records.