Saxby & Farmer Slotted-Post Signals

[Skinnylinny]

Hello all,

I'm tiptoeing nervously into this subforum, as I normally spend my time in the Pre-Grouping section. My 00 gauge layout, Linton Town is based on a freelance pre-grouping company, and set in the time period 1900-1910. Signalling-wise, I've already worked out what I need, and where (I hope!), based on the assumption that the small "Great Southern Railway" has contracted Messrs. Saxby & Farmer to provide signalling equipment. The signalling diagram is as follows:



I've already built up a lever frame (3D printed, with mechanical interlocking), based on drawings in the Saxby & Farmer catalogue of 1889, which is connected to microswitches, the eventual aim being to have servos operating points and signals, controlled by a microprocessor. (Yes, I know that 11 and 12 wouldn't likely be connected to the signalbox, but they've been added for the sake of ease of operation of the layout!)



However, the time has now come to actually look at building signals. I was hoping to go for slotted-post signals, however, I'm struggling to find certain components that I'd be after. The difficulty is that I'm not wanting my signals to exactly match (for example) LB&SCR practice, where the spectacles were either mounted further down the post than the arm, or the light colour was changed by rotating lamps. The basic arrangement of arms and posts I'm hoping for is this:



I was hoping for spectacles mounted on the same axle as the arm, ideally of as close as possible a pattern to the ones shown in these drawings from the catalogue: 

 

As you can see, they're quite distinctive in shape, and rather unlike anything available in the MSE range. I could use the NER spectacles at a push, but they wouldn't look right to me. Does anyone know of anywhere I'd be likely to either find suitable parts for building these signals in 4mm scale, or even where I could get dimensioned drawings to draw up my own for etching?

Many thanks in advance!

Edited April 27 by Skinnylinny

[drduncan]

I’m sure there was an article on NER slotted post signals with drawings which it said were M&H designs in a late 1970s or early 1980s Model Railways.

 

When I get time I’ll try to dig it out.

 

Duncan 

[Stephen Freeman]

From the drawings , I would say Wizards fret for S&F arms (S0010) and for the spectacles  the Stevens fret (S0011)

Mick Nicholson did an article on it for the NERA book, which I think also appeared in the model press.

Edited April 27 by Stephen Freeman

[Skinnylinny]

41 minutes ago, drduncan said:

I’m sure there was an article on NER slotted post signals with drawings which it said were M&H designs in a late 1970s or early 1980s Model Railways.

 

When I get time I’ll try to dig it out.

 

Duncan 

That's very kind, but I'm looking for S&F designs, rather than M&H - I already have drawings for those!
 

17 minutes ago, Stephen Freeman said:

From the drawings , I would say Wizards fret for S&F arms (S0010) and for the spectacles  the Stevens fret (S0011)

Mick Nicholson did an article on it for the NERA book, which I think also appeared in the model press.

Thank you. For the arms, I am indeed intending to use the Wizard S&F fret, but the Stevens "teardrop" spectacles (number 13 on the etch) look completely wrong to my eyes. I think it's the fact that the lenses in the spectacle in the catalogue look like they make up a continuous egg shape, split down the middle, while the Stevens ones are two distinct teardrop shapes. The square-ended ones (number 10) are closer to what I'm after in terms of lens shapes, but obviously aren't ideal for mounting outside a slotted post, without an arm to attach to the square end!

[drduncan]

2 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

That's very kind, but I'm looking for S&F designs, rather than M&H - 

Oops sorry. Have M&H on the mind for my own line…

D

[Stephen Freeman]

I had another look at The NER ones (they are the ones on the old D&S etch) and I think they are going to be the closest available s003/4 and s003/4M. The design isn't quite the same as the drawing but with a little file work to alter the shape of the spectacle is probably the closest unless you go for an entirely new design.

 

Having said that it also appears that upon investigation the SE&CR had some spectacles that were a modification (shape of spectacle aperture differed) of the standard Stevens ones and they don't appear to be catered for either!

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, drduncan said:

I’m sure there was an article on NER slotted post signals with drawings which it said were M&H designs in a late 1970s or early 1980s Model Railways.

 

When I get time I’ll try to dig it out.

 

Duncan 

If you were modelling NER practice, subsidiary signals under running arms were generally worked by a single lever with a mid position as well as normal or reverse.  You pulled the lever half way to clear the subsidiary, pull it all the way and it cleared both Main and subsidiary arms.  I think it was about the 1920s that they fell in line with practice elsewhere.  Probably not suited to the OP's already built lever frame.

 

S&F built boxes for LYR. LBSCR, LNWR, CK&PR, LSWR, SER among others.

 

The diagram is a remarkably good representation of S&F house style - examples here

https://www.gwra.co.uk/auctions/gnr-signal-box-diagram-humberstone-station-diagram-2017nov-0045.html

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/51790692145/in/album-72157627782450647/

A few minor omissions though ...

• the headshunt point should be blacked in to show its normal position
• name of adjacent box
• list of spare levers
• arrows to show the direction of the Up/Down lines
• company name advertised on the diagram

[Skinnylinny]

I think I may have found a drawing that has something closer to what I'm after, albeit with the lamp atop the post! 
This drawing from the HMRS Portfolio of Railway Drawings looks to have the right shape of spectacle. I suppose I could start drawing this up for etching now - somehow I completely missed it in the collection!

[Skinnylinny]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The diagram is a remarkably good representation of S&F house style - examples here

https://www.gwra.co.uk/auctions/gnr-signal-box-diagram-humberstone-station-diagram-2017nov-0045.html

https://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/51790692145/in/album-72157627782450647/

A few minor omissions though ...

• the headshunt point should be blacked in to show its normal position
• name of adjacent box
• list of spare levers
• arrows to show the direction of the Up/Down lines
• company name advertised on the diagram

Thank you - I was aiming to represent the S&F house style of diagram, although I was a bit limited in what I could do in Microsoft Paint! The eventual aim is to trace a printout, then fill in with watercolours. You are quite right that I've missed off the blacking-in of the headshunt point (I'll fix that!), and much of the text. 

I'm trying to give an overall "Saxby & Farmer" feel - the layout has an S&F box, the frame and diagram are S&F, and the block instrument is also based on one in the catalogue.

Edited April 27 by Skinnylinny

[Stephen Freeman]

Call me a doubting Thomas but I'd be very careful about giving too much weight to such drawings. I know some never saw the actual light of day even though they might have been patented. An actual photo is really the only evidence of existance. Of almost no relevance but  Ffestiniog had a bi-directional slotted 3  position signal with a lamp on top but no spectacles. Of course the lamp would possibly rotate presumably, though not sure how. There is replica at Tany-bwlch station (hope that is the right spelling).

 

Here is a model I made under construction. I used 2 sg90 servos but with 2 channels each using a rotary switch for each arm to apply the positions of the arms. The power to the servos is constant, it is the signal to them that needs to be changed - position 1 stop (servo 1 channel signal off), position 2 caution (servo 1 channel signal on), position 3 clear (replacing servo channel 1 and connecting servo  2 channel on), so you need the rotary switch to change the channels over as well as on/off, also the wiring from the servos needs altering as they cannot be directly  connected to the controller board it has to go through the switch. Lamp is purely decorative. Thinking about it now I might have made it more complicated than it needed to be in that a centre off dpdt switch might be used, the deciding factor being that I had plenty of suitable rotary switches to hand but no centre off dpdt ones.

 

If I had then position 1 -control signal wire from servo 1 connected to centre tag, both channels off, position 1 servo channel 1 on, position 2 servo channel 2 on. If both channels off, the arm would need to be in a common position i.e. arm at caution. The other pole being used to switch the channels on or off.

 

 

Edited April 28 by Stephen Freeman

[Stephen Freeman]

here is a diagram for a dpdt switch which might make it clearer. Servo 2 and 1 the same really. Still not sure it will work though. However I do know that a multipole rotary switch will work. I have located a dpdt switch not in use, so might just build a slotted signal (have all the bits) just to satisfy my curiosity. No I don't think it will work as there isn't a way to set or should  I say use the common mid-position, so a multipole rotary switch is required after all. I knew it would be too easy and vindicates my original method.

Edited April 29 by Stephen Freeman

[Skinnylinny]

On 28/04/2024 at 09:36, Stephen Freeman said:

Call me a doubting Thomas but I'd be very careful about giving too much weight to such drawings. I know some never saw the actual light of day even though they might have been patented. An actual photo is really the only evidence of existance.

That's entirely fair - I've seen photographs of ex-SER stations that looked to have the style of signal I have in mind, although they're usually either not sharp enough or scanned at too-low a resolution to be certain. That being said, given the layout is based on a fictitious pre-grouping company's station in a town that didn't exist (even if I can point out where it would be on the map), one could argue that nothing fixed on the layout ever existed!