Layout base boards in North America against the UK

[TTDB]

Hi all I’ve been watching lots of hours of YouTube footage over the last few weeks regarding baseboard construction for an HO layout  it seems in North America the favoured  method seems to be foam board baseboard on your frame where as here in the UK we tend to use open frame or a wood/MDF top . Has Anybody used a foam  topped  board  here in the UK and if so what can you recommend it looks quite interesting and light weight for use and can it withstand the heat in the loft as opposed to a cool basement in North America? 

[Hibelroad]

Gordon Gravett is a great pioneer of lightweight boards, MRJ 235 details his methods and experience. Briefly, foam is lightweight, very stable when subjected to extremes of temperature and moisture but will not hold screws or nails so provision has to be made for things like point motors by inserting plywood blocks. As with anything new it’s best to start by building a trial board and learn by experience. 

[F-UnitMad]

The stuff you want is called Extruded Styrofoam, and like many great ideas American modellers use, such as IPA (Isopropyl Alcohol), it seems to be easily obtainable in the USA at your average DIY Shed, but not here. 🤬 Here they stock 'Kingspan' foil-backedfoam which is crumbly & useless for our purposes.

For some time B&Q stocked slabs of "Knauf Spaceboard", which I used very successfully for my loft layout, they were about 4ft x 19inches, I fixed them to 'brackets' of 2 x 1 wood screwed to the purlins. IIRC the best adhesives are things like "No More Nails", not PVA which needs air contact to dry. Of course they don't seem to stock it any more. 🙄🤦‍♂️

I assume it's available from more specialist suppliers of insulation materials. I would highly recommend it if you can obtain it.

 

Here's a couple of photos of the underside of my layout....

 

 

 

[GrumpyPenguin]

12 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

Here they stock 'Kingspan' foil-backedfoam which is crumbly & useless for our purposes.

I disagree, I'm using it on an exhibition layout with 3 of 8' x 2.5' boards, mostly 50mm and in a lightweight ply frame, strong & lightweight.

 

The only issue I've had is where I've used offcuts for scenary & peeled off the foil from one side & it tended to go banana shaped. I suspect that it tensions during the manufacturing process & removing the foil from one side "relaxes" one side.

 

No issues with temperatures either - it's been in the box trailer in temperatures between -5 & +35 degree C, the woodwork suffered a little (as did the track) but the "Kingspan" remained stable.

[Night Train]

This foam is usually available from insulation specialists, although you might need to buy a pack of 4, or 8 pieces.

[GrumpyPenguin]

Just now, Night Train said:

This foam is usually available from insulation specialists, although you might need to buy a pack of 4, or 8 pieces.

Most builders merchants stock it.

 

It's also worth looking for a bulk suppliers like "Encon" - they will almost give you damaged sheets that they cannot sell & it costs them serious money to dispose of it..

[Hibelroad]

Places like Wickes sell Celotex which is the same sort of stuff as Kingspan. I would always pull the foil off it before baseboards use and most definitely ensure it was fully removed on both sides. I think this is the stuff Gordon Gravett clads with thin ply to make beams which are used for the baseboard frame. 

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, Hibelroad said:

 I would always pull the foil off it before baseboards use and most definitely ensure it was fully removed on both sides. 

For use as scenery fine, for more structural use i.e. baseboard material I'd leave the foil on for strength.

 

There are a huge variety of manufacturers/ thicknesses / types of this material, googling "PIR foam board" will give some idea of the range available.

Edited May 12 by spamcan61

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, GrumpyPenguin said:

I disagree, I'm using it on an exhibition layout with 3 of 8' x 2.5' boards, mostly 50mm and in a lightweight ply frame, strong & lightweight.

 

The only issue I've had....

In my view Kingspan & Cellotex are still far inferior products to the proper stuff. Your "only issue" comment shows that. 

[melmerby]

You can also get foam with a plywood face.

 

[SouthernRegionSteam]

7 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

In my view Kingspan & Cellotex are still far inferior products to the proper stuff. Your "only issue" comment shows that. 

Against my better judgement I'm going to chime in here by saying that I don't think the disagreement was necessarily about whether it's an inferior product or not (I imagine Styrofoam probably is better, but as you note is not exactly the easiest to get hold of when compared to Kingspan products - hence why I've never used it), but rather the fact that you cast it aside as "crumbly & useless for our purposes" which, IMO, is not exactly true - as @Hibelroad pointed out!

With regards to the Celotex stuff, if you're going to pull the foil off for any reason, always pull it off from both sides (it's really easy to do if you slide a butter knife around the perimeter, then it just seems to pull off quite nicely in most cases). If not, then it's fine to leave as-is with foil on both sides. Even if styrofoam is better, Celotex is still a very useful material, and it's something I've used on all my layouts with a bit of softwood bracing and thin ply fascias to protect the edges.

[F-UnitMad]

12 minutes ago, SouthernRegionSteam said:

Against my better judgement I'm going to chime in here by saying that I don't think the disagreement was necessarily about whether it's an inferior product or not (I imagine Styrofoam probably is better, but as you note is not exactly the easiest to get hold of when compared to Kingspan products - hence why I've never used it),

We can certainly agree on that. 👍

 

[spamcan61]

Worth bearing in mind Kingspan and Celotex are both brands, which cover a number of somewhat different products.

Edited May 12 by spamcan61

[SouthernRegionSteam]

5 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Worth bearing in mind Kingspan and Celotex are both brands, which cover a number of somewhat different products.

Very true! I believe the material itself is called PIR insulation board (Polyisocyanurate board). At least that's what the Kingspan ones are that I use from places like Wickes.
(Not that I knew that's what it was called until now, as I've always just called it by the brands as do most people I know!)

[GrumpyPenguin]

4 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

In my view Kingspan & Cellotex are still far inferior products to the proper stuff. Your "only issue" comment shows that. 

It was not really an issue, once it was discovered that the Kingspan required both sides to have the foil removed or left in place.

 

There may very well be superior products available accross the water (after all, they are pretty good with wooden houses) but we use what we can obtain.

[Andy Hayter]

Extruded PS is widely available here in France where it is used to insulate under-floor heating systems.  I get mine from Castorama which is part of the Kingfisher Group - as is B&Q.   50mm thickness is working well for me and  as others have said it needs edge protection (ply).  In contrast to a comment from someone else, my track and a lot of scenic items are glued down using PVA and are very solid, although the glue does take a bit of time to go off.  

[Prof Klyzlr]

Foamcore, aka "Kappaboard". See "Keith Harcourt Kappaboard" and the Kalmbach project layout "Cripple Creek Central".

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

 

PS Google "MRH Foamcore Module Idea" for a worked modular layout example...

[F-UnitMad]

On 12/05/2024 at 20:34, GrumpyPenguin said:

There may very well be superior products available accross the water (after all, they are pretty good with wooden houses) but we use what we can obtain.

That's the bit I find irritating, plus we often pay as much/more for inferior stuff, as well..!! In fact the inferior performance of late '80s Hornby & Lima diesels was just one of the reasons I got into American outline to start with.

[jpendle]

It's called XPS (Extruded Polystyrene) here in the states.

I started using it on my latest layout and it's great.

It's rigid and can be easily built up in layers, as it comes in inches over here, naturally!, it matches Woodland Scenics inclines and risers.

I glue my Tortoise motors straight to it without the need for any form of plywood insert.

WARNING  It does NOT take rattle can paint very well, too much and it melts.

 

Shown here in various states of disrepair  finish.

 

 

Regards,

 

John P

Edited May 15 by jpendle
Extra stuff

[TheQ]

Xps / extruded foam and isopropyl alcohol are both easily available on eBay and Amazon.

High density xps foam is easily available from builders merchants.

 

I've used celotex in the past, not had a problem with it..

[dave1905]

On 11/05/2024 at 10:41, TTDB said:

 it seems in North America the favoured  method seems to be foam board baseboard on your frame where as here in the UK we tend to use open frame or a wood/MDF top .

Foam is common, but I don't know if "favored" is correct.  I only know of one layout in my area that is built on foam, the other 15 or so are built on plywood, Homasote or spline. I have built only layout on foam, a small one for my son a couple decades ago.  All the layouts before and since then have been on plywood or a Homasote/plywood sandwich.  All of those have been room sized permanent (non-sectional) layouts.

[F-UnitMad]

On 16/05/2024 at 00:36, TheQ said:

Xps / extruded foam and isopropyl alcohol are both easily available on eBay and Amazon.

That's still not as easily available - or as cheap - as at your local DIY Shed or drugstore/Walmart.