Signalling Help!

[wubbo22]

Good afternoon all,

 

I am in the process of determining where to place the signals on my layout. It is set in the late 80s-early 90s in suburban London. Network Southeast, 3rd rail, former LSWR/LBSCR territory. 

In terms of locomotives, it is classes 33, 37, 47, 50 , 73 and 92.

For rolling stock, it is the likes of MK1, MK2, EPB, HAP, VEP, 159, 165 and appropriate freight for the era & location.

 

It takes the form of a branch line junction station, with two through platforms (1 & 2) for the double track mainline, and a single through platform (3) on the "up side" of the station for the single track branch line, forming an island platform altogether with platform 2. (I'm unsure if these are numbered correctly, please correct me if so!). A branch before the branch line platform allows access into a headshunt, and the approach to a diesel depot. From the headshunt, a carriage shed and washer can be accessed through a crossover. Diagram is attached for clarity.

 

My issue pertains to the positioning of signals for the running lines (as far as I understand, within a depot or carriage sidings would not require signals).

 

I have identified 4 locations where, following some reading-up, I think signals would be located:

1. Approaching station - 3 aspect with feather for diverging line
2. Platform 2 starter - 3 aspect
3. Platform 3 starter - 3 aspect
4. From headshunt/depot - 3 aspect

Note: as a viewer of the layout, it is not possible to see 1 head-on - thus, it will be modelled using LEDs in the tunnel that illuminate in front of the light rather than lighting the signal itself. 

 

I have definitely missed some ground signals in the shed/depot so please let me know where they would be located. 

Many thanks.

[5BarVT]

You’ve given a good description of the era in terms of stock.  What sort of era do you want for the signalling?  In the late 80s early 90s a ‘country’ station like that could have had signalling dating from anywhere between 1900 and 1990!  You’ve partly answered it by showing colour light signals so that probably pushes the start date back to at least 1920.

The form of the signals, but more, the number and positioning will vary depending on the era of installation.

Would it be safe to assume that something with less rather than more signals would be preferred?

Paul.

[wubbo22]

Hi Paul,

Colour light signals are definitely my preference.

I would imagine that the signals on this line would be more recently replaced, am I right in thinking this would increase the number of signals present? 

There's not much preference on the number of signals per se, but I am using the MERG CBUS system if that affects the thinking.

Many thanks,

James

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, 5BarVT said:

You’ve given a good description of the era in terms of stock.  What sort of era do you want for the signalling?  In the late 80s early 90s a ‘country’ station like that could have had signalling dating from anywhere between 1900 and 1990!  You’ve partly answered it by showing colour light signals so that probably pushes the start date back to at least 1920.

The form of the signals, but more, the number and positioning will vary depending on the era of installation.

Would it be safe to assume that something with less rather than more signals would be preferred?

Paul.

All the pre early 1950s colour light installations on the SR had been replaced by the mid-late 1980s and some of the 1950s installations had also gone by then.  So you're really looking at 1970s/80s signalling standards or later.

[Flying Pig]

I don't know the specifics of how they would be signalled on the Southern in your period, but

• There are 4 routes from Signal 1: Down Main, Branch, Headshunt and Diesel Depot.  I would guess that the two last might be signalled by a position light subsidiary with stencil route indicator?
• There need to be trap (not catch) points on both routes out of the diesel depot and the plan only shows one; perhaps a single trap nearer to the slip which would allow some shunting of the depot on scene?  I've a feeling Signal 4 is on the wrong side of the slip and might actually be two separate signals?  Someone will know.

[phil-b259]

On 15/05/2024 at 20:31, wubbo22 said:

Good afternoon all,

 

I am in the process of determining where to place the signals on my layout. It is set in the late 80s-early 90s in suburban London. Network Southeast, 3rd rail, former LSWR/LBSCR territory. 

In terms of locomotives, it is classes 33, 37, 47, 50 , 73 and 92.

For rolling stock, it is the likes of MK1, MK2, EPB, HAP, VEP, 159, 165 and appropriate freight for the era & location.

 

It takes the form of a branch line junction station, with two through platforms (1 & 2) for the double track mainline, and a single through platform (3) on the "up side" of the station for the single track branch line, forming an island platform altogether with platform 2. (I'm unsure if these are numbered correctly, please correct me if so!). A branch before the branch line platform allows access into a headshunt, and the approach to a diesel depot. From the headshunt, a carriage shed and washer can be accessed through a crossover. Diagram is attached for clarity.

 

My issue pertains to the positioning of signals for the running lines (as far as I understand, within a depot or carriage sidings would not require signals).

 

I have identified 4 locations where, following some reading-up, I think signals would be located:

1. Approaching station - 3 aspect with feather for diverging line
2. Platform 2 starter - 3 aspect
3. Platform 3 starter - 3 aspect
4. From headshunt/depot - 3 aspect

Note: as a viewer of the layout, it is not possible to see 1 head-on - thus, it will be modelled using LEDs in the tunnel that illuminate in front of the light rather than lighting the signal itself. 

 

I have definitely missed some ground signals in the shed/depot so please let me know where they would be located. 

Many thanks.

The depots and sidings would not have signals for movements totally within each area - they would have hand points set by the shutter and loco movements be verbally authorised.

 

You would not use a main aspect signal to authorise movements into the depot - that is done by a subsidiary signal (2 white lights at 45 degrees - not the 3 lights in a triangular setup as the red of the main aspect provides the ‘stop’ instruction) and small format ‘stencil’ route indicator located below the main aspect head.

 

You do not use main aspects for locos backing down onto trains - that is handled by the subsidiary signal as described above.

 

You require some form of trapping arrangement for platform 3 so as to avoid a SPAD ending up on the main line. To achieve this I suggest you replace the point where the branch platform and the depot / sidings line diverges with a single slip - any train SPADing the starting signal can then be sent ‘straight on’ into a sand drag or similar thus protecting the main line.

 

You also need some form of trap point to avoid locos from the diesel depot ending up on the main line should a SPAD occur.

 

Here I suggest you replace the single slip between the carriage sidings and the head shut with a double slip. This would need to be under control of the signaller so as to ensure routes cannot be set towards the main line unless main line trains had stopped. Because of this you will need to provide 3 shunt signals to protect the point - one from the headshunt, one from the depot and one from the carriage siding.

 

 

Edited May 17 by phil-b259

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Is the layout already built? If so, how do you operate it? It is easier to plan the signalling around moves that you actually make than it is to guess what moves you might want to make.

 

Shunting the carriage sidings looks to be awkward. Do the carriage sidings offer stabling for stock terminating at the next station towards London, so they are only ever used for ECS trains coming from/going towards London, or do you move units between your station and the carriage sidings? How do you shunt them to/from a platform? If you use the up line for shunting, you will need a ground position light signal for the move back into the station.

 

Do you use the carriage sidings for loco hauled stock? How do you do the shunting?

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

All the pre early 1950s colour light installations on the SR had been replaced by the mid-late 1980s and some of the 1950s installations had also gone by then.  So you're really looking at 1970s/80s signalling standards or later.

<Pedant On>
Beg to differ!  Maidstone E still working, Woking lasted til late 90s, Clapham A still there on 12 December 1988.

<Pedant Off>
But, yes, most 30s and 50s installations swept away by London Bridge, Victoria and Three Bridges schemes between 1970 and 1895 ish.  
The difference it will make to this layout is that 30s/50s I would put the signal after the exit of the tunnel tight on the points (with complicated interlocking due to the points) and 80s I would put it at the far end of the tunnel so completely invisible model wise. 
Paul. 

[wubbo22]

 

Hi All, thank you for the messages.

 

11 hours ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

Is the layout already built? If so, how do you operate it?

 

Yes, it is already built, track layout and wiring were built around 6 years ago with some slow electrics development in the years since. But I've got added the depot now and am considering signalling. Ideally, I wouldn't rip up any of the track, apart from anything past the 'lower' crossover. I will put the trap point on the other side of the diesel depot approach point.

 

I assumed signal 4 would cover both depot and headshunt access to mainline - I figure this would then be two separate signals for each respectively.

 

In terms of operations:

Sidings:

• The carriage sidings are long enough for 3 coaches each, with the headshunt long enough for those 3 coaches and a class 47, so I assume a bit of shunting would happen to and from the sidings.
• Could loco-hauled stock and MUs both be stored in these sheds? Would it be one or the other?
• Trains shunt out of the shed into the headshunt, another loco picks them up and it forms them up in the branch line platform before going towards London.

Depot

• Light engine movements, with the occasional TTA fuel train into the runaround loop.

 

Please do let me know if there's any other info required!

 

Edited May 17 by wubbo22

[Flying Pig]

11 hours ago, wubbo22 said:

Trains shunt out of the shed into the headshunt, another loco picks them up and it forms them up in the branch line platform before going towards London.

 

You could imagine another set of crossovers at the country end and run round a train in the platform.

[wubbo22]

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

 

You could imagine another set of crossovers at the country end and run round a train in the platform.

 

There's a crossover in the non-scenic part at the country end that allows me to run from either side of the fiddle yard, so this is definitely possible

Edited May 17 by wubbo22

[wubbo22]

As I understand it, 3 signals facing the mainline are required. One each for branch line, headshunt and depot , and the catch point has to protect the mainline from the whole depot. Between the carriage sidings and the headshunt is under control of the ground so no signals required between there. 

Full 3 aspect for the branch and ground signals for the others (or do you need an aspect to enter the mainline?)

 

Would the signals at the end of the island platform have subsidiary signals (45 degree whites) for shunting from their line into the depot/headshunt? And the train would enter the tunnel until clear of the point then reverse?

 

Could there be a repeater signal mounted to the canopy of the back platform, if the curve of the platform obscures the starter signal at the down end of the station?

[Grovenor]

How I see it.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

I'd only suggest one amendment to Grovenor's annotated sketch - what you have shown as "catch point" comes out - its purpose is met by the trap he added, although I infer from "hidden under station roof" that the platforms extend beyond the bridge, so Grovenor's 9 & 10 on Platforms 2 & 3 would actually be slightly further to the right - which may mean you can probably get away with not modelling them.  Likewise there would also be a corresponding hidden 3-aspect signal for departing Plat 1.

 

There are operational issues to consider.   Platform 1 is only used by through trains, terminating trains from London would have to use plat 3, as you can't send a shunter out onto the Down main.  That's not a signalled move, as 7 reads to the Up line.  Even it were a signalled move, you'd need a limit of shunt, and the shunt would have to go into tunnel (rare, though they do it at Kings Cross).  So to get coaches from Plat 1 to shed, yu'd have to draw forward, propel over your hidden crossover right through Plat 2, then draw forward into the headshunt ...

It looks like the only way a loco can run round any vehicles is using the carriage washing plant - seems a little unlikely.  Your option to use 2 locos for some moves would be most unlikely to happen in practice, as it requires more capital equipment (the second loco) and another crew. 

 

I note you have not listed 08 among your loco classes; you may find you need one.  I assume the 92 only ever runs through (but that's more jusification than I have for my own 92!)

 

In view of where you put limit of electrification, there's no access to carriage shed & washer for EMUS.  Might be an issue?

 

You've not included a signal box - perfectly reasonable, the place could well be signalled remotely.  So a box (or former box) is optional.

[Flying Pig]

43 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It looks like the only way a loco can run round any vehicles is using the carriage washing plant - seems a little unlikely.  Your option to use 2 locos for some moves would be most unlikely to happen in practice, as it requires more capital equipment (the second loco) and another crew.

 

I think the washer siding is a dead end.  A loco-hauled down train terminating in platform 3 can shunt to the carriage shed via the up main with two reversals and without the loco running round or entering the tunnel.

 

Stock for up trains can be shunted from the car shed to platform 3 by the reverse of the above.  If a connection between platform 3 and the up main at the country end of the station is imagined as I suggested previously, the loco can then easily run round via the up main. 

 

The imagined offscene signalling in @Grovenor's sketch would change and gpl 8 would need a route into platform 3 but I think all the moves are catered for otherwise.

 

In boring real life of course, peak time loco-hauled trains would be a 33 with 4TC sets continuing to the branch and no running round would occur.  Off-peak would be DEMUs with perhaps an electric service (4VEP?) terminating in platform 3 to justify the carriage sidings (which would be an electric car shed).  The diesel depot would be a sand terminal (more fun anyway).

[roythebus1]

I'd agree with Grovenor and PhilB, they are both professional railwaymen! (retired) I'd suggest that as it's a London area line, the main line signalling would be 4 aspect not 3 aspect. the car sheds would be electrified, shunting onto the main lines would be kept to a bare minimum as the last thing the train operators want is their valuable commuter trains being held up by shunting! Boring I know but true. 

[Flying Pig]

A thought - if the car shed is sufficient to block the view, the tunnel may not be necessary.

[wubbo22]

@Grovenor 
Thank you very much! That looks grand.

 

@Michael Hodgson is correct in that the platforms extend past the road and under the station roof, so any signals at the country end of the station are fully out of sight for the average viewer. 

Anything terminating from London would come off the 'mainline' and terminate in the branch line platform.

I forgot to draw it in but the signal box sits just below where signal #8 is.

Yes - I am looking at getting an 08, any suggestions for livery? (NSE/BR blue I presume but anything more niche?)

 

@Flying Pig

Washer siding is a dead end, but I could connect it up to the depot if that would be reasonable. I haven't started on the depot trackwork.

Above the tunnel is a Scenecraft substation and a little residential street, which hides the track curving round to the fiddle yard.