Clifford Road TMD (7mm/O Gauge)

[Clifford Road]

** NOTE: The layout started as a 4mm model, but has ended up at 7mm - see Page 2 (Click Here) for the updates since the move to O gauge **

Welcome to Clifford Road. A couple of people on this forum have suggested I should post regularly and let people read about how the layout is progressing. This i'm happy to do, having not done it before, it will be interesting to see if other modellers enjoy it - I would hope its a two-way process and I'd like to hear feedback!

 

The layout is (well, will be!) a OO gauge model, occupying just over 12 foot along the back office wall (a little too convenient to not doing work at times!), and intended to be set around the mid-late 1980s. The modellers license is that this is predominately the BR Blue era with sectorisation and second-generation DMUs starting to creep in! For those who insist on the right number of rivets, please be aware that I'm not in the same skill league! It needs to look right and I'm quite a perfectionist, but as long as it looks right, i'm happy!

 

The regional placing of the layout is somewhere in the eastern outskirts of Manchester - Clifford Yard, one of the declining regional Speedlink hubs is east of the station (not modelled) - and generates a small amount of traffic each day, very little of which passes through the station with the exception of the twice-daily trip working into the sidings at Westhills. Clifford Road station is a simple island platform affair which sees a regular through DMU service operated to Manchester Victoria, while terminating services from Stockport and Bolton reverse here to head back westwards. Ajoining the station is Clifford Road TMD - a small stabling point that services, fuels and provides the motive power for freight services from Clifford Yard.

 

Despite its predominantely passenger traffic, the appearance of a variety of locomotives on and off the TMD tends to draw a few enthusiasts each day, who can usually be observed on the end of the platforms, or trying to sneek around the depot! The highlight of the day, tends to be the departure of the 16.45 postal service to Manchester Piccadilly - this is usually formed of a Class 121 Parcels bubble car, although a Class 31 and parcels van has been known!

 

In general the station sees the twice-weekly movement of fuel oil onto the TMD and a twice daily Speedlink trip of two or three wagons either to or from the Westhills Industrial area. The latter usually arrive from Clifford Yard into the freight loop, the locomotive is detached and runs onto the TMD, while the resident '08' shunter is then used to move them across to the sidings and shunt as required.

 

In reality the layout is 12ft 6ins long, including both fiddle yards, and the lack of through freight trains is explained by the shortness of the said fiddle yards! The western end being just 24 inches long, the eastern end being 32 inches. Unfortunately to provide the station and approach areas that I wanted anything larger was out of the question. The western fiddle yard sits on a board that is just seven inches wide, this extends to 12 inches as the scenic area starts. The right hand (eastern) 3ft of the layout is then on 2ft wide boards to accommodate the other fiddle yard and the industrial sidings.

 

Control is by a Digitrax DCC. While the company does not have the easiest looking controller, its operation is easy and sits in the hand well. Being something of an electronics fan, I wanted a DCC system that would easily hook up to a computer, and this will be done on Clifford Road. Using the fabulous Railroad & Co TrainController software, it means than an authentic and effective multiple unit operated passenger service can operate automatically at times, leaving me (the sole operator!) time to shunt the depot or warehouse. The advantage of TrainController is that it easily allows both automatic and manual workings to be undertaken at the same time - hence not detracting from the operating enjoyment. It also means that if I wish, the computer can be 'switched out' and the whole layout controlled manually, buy multiple operaters.

 

Despite the DCC system, for quickness and ease of use, there will be a small control panel with push-to-make buttons for the point motors, which are all PECO. My long term aim is to replace these with Tortoise, but for now, a least they work! The control panel will not be connected directly to the point motors as usual, but instead, the switches feed into a CML Electronics Tower Master board, which interfaces with the DCC system - hence pressing a button sends an electrical impulse to the Tower Master, which then sends a DCC signal to the point motor. It all sounds very complicated, but in reality is very simple and means that both the DCC system and the computer know which direction the point is set.

 

A rough computer drawing of the proposed trackplan is attached below.

 

 

One of the main aims of Clifford Road was to develop a layout that was operationally enjoyable to work, that looked good and effective and allowed me time to enjoy my other hobby of photography - hence expect to see numerous photographs of the layout posted on here!

 

If anybody can offer any advice or suggestions on how to improve things, the best way to do particular aspects or wishes to comment on the layout please do! Although i've been modelling for several years, this has mainly revolved around a scenic-less board with more running than modelling - so this is my first proper layout in many respects. Please feel free to critise if you feel the need, all I ask is for readers to make it constructive criticism!

[Clifford Road]

Having set the scene, I thought it was then worth updating the small progress that was made yesterday and today.

 

The baseboard has been constructed the framework is all 2'x2' softwood, with the exception of the 12'6 length of 3'x2' which supports the layout and which is screwed to the wall! The baseboard sheets are then 6mm Plywood, cut to size. All I think looks quite nice. Now to check that the track layout will fit, drill the holes for the point motors and then to start ballasting!

 

 

The baseboard frames outside, before being located in the office!

 

 

Looking down the baseboard. The camera is roughly where the platform will be - looking west.

 

 

The future location of the small east fiddle yard.

 

 

From the west end looking east.

[alcoRS1]

Your DVD drive is blocked by the layout

 

Did you do the track plans on the Mac (I approve of the Mac). I have been using the trail version of RailModeller 4.0, you cannot save or print, but I just do a section screen copy using preview import section (just cannot go back and edit after).

[Clifford Road]

Your DVD drive is blocked by the layout

 

Did you do the track plans on the Mac (I approve of the Mac). I have been using the trail version of RailModeller 4.0, you cannot save or print, but I just do a section screen copy using preview import section (just cannot go back and edit after).

 

Haha! Thats something I hadn't even realised!!! Have just undertaken a technical adjustment ... moved the Mac 4 inches to the left! Lol!

 

I did. All hand drawn, although I should have stated, not to scale! They were done in Adobe InDesign - I've tried a couple of the layout design softwares but just couldn't get to grips with them, which is a shame as it would be nice to have it all to scale However, I've resorted to the less advanced method and drawn around points onto a piece of A4 and cut them out!!! Who said pen and paper was dead!

[Oldddudders]

In reality the layout is 12ft 6ins long, including both fiddle yards, and the lack of through freight trains is explained by the shortness of the said fiddle yards! The western end being just 24 inches long, the eastern end being 32 inches. Unfortunately to provide the station and approach areas that I wanted anything larger was out of the question. The western fiddle yard sits on a board that is just seven inches wide, this extends to 12 inches as the scenic area starts. The right hand (eastern) 3ft of the layout is then on 2ft wide boards to accommodate the other fiddle yard and the industrial sidings.

The layout's concept is sound, as is your rationale about DCC and switchable automation. What worries me is getting all that trackwork into 12'6". I hope I'm wrong!

[cromptonnut]

I too have concerns about fitting all that in 12ft - I think you'd be hard pushed to fit all that in 12ft in N gauge!

 

Your East and West storage yards are just over 5ft 6" which leaves just under 7ft of scenic between the two breaks. You have effectively 5 points left to right in that area, which even if you use Setrack points works out at just under 3ft with them back to back and with nothing to the right as a 'lead in'. Assuming you have 1ft of space to the right (although your diagram implies more with the road bridge etc) that leaves 3ft for the platforms at best - about long enough for a DMU. Assuming you're using Streamline points (even the short radius ones) that will give you a lot less than 3ft for the station.

 

Concept-wise, it seems a well thought out plan, with (rightly identified) lots of operating potential and I too like the sound of the automated/DCC and pushbutton bits. However, I think you'll find you don't have the space you need.

 

My suggestion would be to "drop" the industrial, instead having a spur going off to the top right (so trains go in and out regularly but aren't stabled there apart from waiting for a road), and bring the TMD into the place where you have the industrial area, bring the road to the left a bit, and have the scenic break for the fiddle yard start there.

 

2ft for the West yard is also very optimistic taking into account that the double slip and just two points takes up most of the 2ft! Perhaps a sliding traverser table of some kind would be better?

[Clifford Road]

I too have concerns about fitting all that in 12ft - I think you'd be hard pushed to fit all that in 12ft in N gauge!

 

Thanks for the comments Olddudders and cromptonnut - you are totally correct! When i drew the plan, having measured a couple of locos and DMUs, i guessed at the length of the pointwork (stupid I know!) so the first task once the boards were up, was to get some (very rough!) paper plans of a mates points and lay out the proposed trackplan. All actually works with one exception - the up to down crossover which gives access to the industrial area from the goods loop won't fit. The scenic break's at both ends have been pulled in about 10-12" to give a bit more length to the fiddle yards, but I'd half expected that. However, the lack of the cross-over causes operational problems!

 

My suggestion would be to "drop" the industrial, instead having a spur going off to the top right (so trains go in and out regularly but aren't stabled there apart from waiting for a road), and bring the TMD into the place where you have the industrial area, bring the road to the left a bit, and have the scenic break for the fiddle yard start there.

 

2ft for the West yard is also very optimistic taking into account that the double slip and just two points takes up most of the 2ft! Perhaps a sliding traverser table of some kind would be better?

 

Now I actually hadn't thought of putting the TMD there - mainly because I like layouts with shunting potential, and wanted to be able to potter about with wagons! Because the layout is up against the wall on two sides at the west fiddle yard end, a traverser wasn't really a viable option. Also the minimal space for the whole layout led to the DMU service and loco idea. However, doing away with the industrial section does solve another problem - that being that any freights could only be 3 two-axle wagons and a loco to fit the fiddle yard!

 

SO, having moving the paper plans around a bit, and taking the above suggestion, on board. I've actually come up with the following ...

 

... which all fits and works - and to be honest will probably represent the Manchester area far better! I think the operating potential is reduced, but only slightly. Freight wise, the depot can still receive fuel tanks on a regular basis, and loco movements around the TMD should keep the interest level there. Also the reduction in points makes it cheaper, gives more room for scenery and saves me having to wire so many point motors!!!

 

Any thoughts, comments???

[Allegheny1600]

Hi there,

This plan looks to have great potential to me!

However, if i may..........I think you'll still find it hard to fit it all in, in the given space (no harm in trying!), so i've made a small amendment like this;

Where there is a new crossover between the down platform & the down platform loop line, just before the entry into the east fiddle. This costs you one extra point but saves you the length of a point in the east fiddle - useful!?! The remainder of the down platform loop line that ran into the east fiddle, now becomes a 'dummy' line or simply a stub ended siding?

The layout more or less looks the same but with a potential 9"+ in the east fiddle!

Still thinking about space saving in the west fiddle yard................Do you really need access to all f.y. tracks from/to the up/down lines?

Hope this helps,

John E.

[Clifford Road]

Hi there,

This plan looks to have great potential to me!

However, if i may..........I think you'll still find it hard to fit it all in, in the given space (no harm in trying!), so i've made a small amendment like this;

Where there is a new crossover between the down platform & the down platform loop line, just before the entry into the east fiddle. This costs you one extra point but saves you the length of a point in the east fiddle - useful!?! The remainder of the down platform loop line that ran into the east fiddle, now becomes a 'dummy' line or simply a stub ended siding?

The layout more or less looks the same but with a potential 9"+ in the east fiddle!

Still thinking about space saving in the west fiddle yard................Do you really need access to all f.y. tracks from/to the up/down lines?

Hope this helps,

John E.

 

Hi John,

Thanks for that suggestion. Its the first time, I've created a forum post for my own layout and I'm amazed by the kindness of people's advice and suggestions to be honest - all helps to see things from different perspectives.

 

I like the crossover idea, but unfortunately, it makes the space issue a bigger problem! What I have done is to take your thought on board and brought the point that links the Down Platform and the Down loop, 85% into the scenic area, which still means the loop is long enough to hold a two-car 108 or the like if necessary, but eases the space problem for the east fiddle yard.

 

I've been out and bought most of the pointwork for the layout now, and having laid it roughly in place this afternoon, it all fits remarkably well to the revised plan. The more I think about it, the more I like the revised version with all the suggestions than the original!

 

 

The above shot is taken from roughly adjacent to where the platform will sit, looking towards the West Fiddle Yard. An old two-car Lima 117 being using to ensure that the platform is long enough!

 

Fiddle Yard

I've made a slight change to the West Fiddle Yard. Basically changing one of the right hand medium points for a 3-day, which saves space and then by adding another three way (pointing in the opposite direction) it provides two short stabling sidings in the fiddle yard for getting individual locos out the way, while still retaining the access road that is long enough for a two-car DMU.

[Oldddudders]

I'm really glad you've ended up with a trackplan that suits - thanks to those who made suggestions. I have always found that laying out the points and crossings and measuring the distances between is the only reliable method of designing a track layout that is known to fit and do what you need. Clever people, of course, do it electronically on their PC or Mac, but I'm never going to manage that!

 

Keep us posted on progress.

[Clifford Road]

I'm really glad you've ended up with a trackplan that suits - thanks to those who made suggestions. I have always found that laying out the points and crossings and measuring the distances between is the only reliable method of designing a track layout that is known to fit and do what you need. Clever people, of course, do it electronically on their PC or Mac, but I'm never going to manage that!

 

Keep us posted on progress.

 

Ian,

Thanks for that. I certainly will! I'm into a proving stage at the moment! Both platforms will take a pair of Class 142 DMUs, the loop is just about long enough for a loco and three tanks. The east fiddle yard has been roughly laid tonight and as per the plan, roads 1 and 3 will take a single unit (i.e. 21" for a two-car DMU) while road 2 will hold a light engine. Haven't laid anything on the west end as yet, but I'm confident that with a tape measure from the points to the end of the board that Road 1 will fit two locos or a two-car DMU, roads 2-3 will each fit a pair of 142s and roads 4-5 will fit something like a four-car Class 150.

 

All in all coming together! Just a shame a 31 or 37 and four Mk2s won't fit in to allow a loco-hauled passenger to run, and then run-round in the station!

[P.C.M]

Hi Rich,

I like the story behind the layout, it gives a good picture of what you are trying to do. The plan looks good, but it's a shame you haven't enough room for a frieght siding, though once you have started to lay track you might find you have room. I like the idea of a loco hauled, can you get away with a three coach train?

 

Cheers Peter.

[cromptonnut]

All in all coming together! Just a shame a 31 or 37 and four Mk2s won't fit in to allow a loco-hauled passenger to run, and then run-round in the station!

 

Have you worked out how "short" you are for that?

 

If so, there are two possible solutions.

 

1) The platform continues under the 'scenic break' by East Yard giving the impression that there is more space than there actually is.

 

2) Extending the layout "round the corner" a little at one end, and having a longer curved siding dedicated to that train only?

 

I know I've often made the mistake of having all fiddle yard roads maximum length where by cutting some inches off of one to enable a line round the back means a longer train can fit on that, and a short train still make use of the shorter siding.

[BlackRat]

Its amazing just how often we workl out plans that when it comes to putting track down never work!

 

Barry Normans book, Desiging a Layout' is highly reccomended.

 

 

[Clifford Road]

I like the story behind the layout, it gives a good picture of what you are trying to do. The plan looks good, but it's a shame you haven't enough room for a frieght siding, though once you have started to lay track you might find you have room. I like the idea of a loco hauled, can you get away with a three coach train?

 

 

Thanks Peter, I like the touch of realism behind things - gives it a reason for being there. Unfortunately not, the fiddle yard as it stands is long enough for a two-coach DMU, and i can just creep a pair of 142 into another road, but thats it .... as it stands!

 

 

 

Have you worked out how "short" you are for that?

 

If so, there are two possible solutions.

 

1) The platform continues under the 'scenic break' by East Yard giving the impression that there is more space than there actually is.

 

2) Extending the layout "round the corner" a little at one end, and having a longer curved siding dedicated to that train only?

 

 

Yes, about a foot short! Extending the boards slightly isn't an option because of a window ... BUT! I like your idea about extending under the scenic break ... which has set me thinking. If I did away with the East Fiddle Yard and move to a dead-end station, then I could extend the west fiddle yard by a foot and still get a loco, three Mk1s and a loco into the platform roads (i.e. loco change rather than run-round), which would also give more reason for the depot to be present and for a freight siding to be added. Hmm!

[cromptonnut]

A terminus station does somewhat restrict the operation a little - but it may well work for what you want. That's the benefit of working it out on paper and talking with others before laying your first piece of track permanently...

[Clifford Road]

A terminus station does somewhat restrict the operation a little - but it may well work for what you want. That's the benefit of working it out on paper and talking with others before laying your first piece of track permanently...

 

Interesting comment .... my line of thinking was that it added operational activity because of the need to change locos, locos on and off depot, possibly shunt stock etc... What are your thoughts about restricting the operations?

[cromptonnut]

Interesting comment .... my line of thinking was that it added operational activity because of the need to change locos, locos on and off depot, possibly shunt stock etc... What are your thoughts about restricting the operations?

 

With a 'fiddle to fiddle' or 'roundy roundy' layout, you can have any number of trains passing through (even the same one half a dozen times) and it looks like a wide variety of different trains (especially if you swap locos and stock on each trip round). This is particularly useful for freight, ie you can have a container train going past without having to worry about unloading it "on scene".

 

Sure, there may be some shunt release work, the odd loco on and off the station, but that's about it.

 

The other problem is freight - you'd be very unlikely to have freight run into a terminus then back out into a freight depot, instead the line "in" to the yard would be further up the line so you don't foul up the station shunting.

 

Most modern terminii are either very busy (such as the London ones) or a shadow of their former selves (such as Skegness - once boasted 24 carriage stabling sidings) and, particularly with the lean now towards DMU operation, or top and tailed, most trains don't need running round.

 

You'll find very few modern terminii, outside of the London rushhour, where there's a constant procession of trains in and out - you'll most likely have just one unit in the station, which comes in, sits for half an hour whilst the driver has a break and the cleaning crew pick up all the newspapers and other litter, before going out again. Modelling that is terminally tedious (pardon the pun)... so we either speed up the timetable so our layout looks like Clapham Junction on steroids, or start introducing unrealistic movements to keep things moving.

 

It can be done - and you may well manage it - but these reasons are why my little single line, branch line passing loop station is a through station which if nothing else allows me to run a DMU through to the "rest of the world" whilst there's a freight parked in the other platform dropping some wagons off at the factory.

 

At the end of the day it's your layout... but personally I find terminii don't really hold my interest for long.

 

Tied in with the "through station" idea... of course, why do layouts need a station? I've got a plan to use some of my OO stuff that's basically a twin track line passing a CE depot, so trains don't stop unless they're going into the yard.

[Clifford Road]

It can be done - and you may well manage it - but these reasons are why my little single line, branch line passing loop station is a through station which if nothing else allows me to run a DMU through to the "rest of the world" whilst there's a freight parked in the other platform dropping some wagons off at the factory.

 

 

At the end of the day it's your layout... but personally I find terminii don't really hold my interest for long.

 

Tied in with the "through station" idea... of course, why do layouts need a station? I've got a plan to use some of my OO stuff that's basically a twin track line passing a CE depot, so trains don't stop unless they're going into the yard.

 

Cromptonnut,

Thanks for that. Interesting how different people see things different ways and I must admit, you mentioned a couple of things in there I hadn't thought about. I think a big part of making layouts interesting and have operating potential for those behind the controller are about making the movements realistic, so yes I agree that there is no point having a country terminus with an unrealistic service that sees an arrival or departure every 3 minutes!

 

I think i'm going to take a couple of days away from layout planning and give some serious thought to what I want out of it, rather than what have I the ability to do with the space - on hindsight, that question comes second. I've read in the model press before about people creating lists of what they want from a layout and never really understood why - perhaps I now do and in many ways, thats thanks to you guys on this forum for giving your ideas and sharing thoughts - thanks for that.

 

If anybody else has any opinions, throw them in! All are welcome!

[cromptonnut]

I think i'm going to take a couple of days away from layout planning and give some serious thought to what I want out of it, rather than what have I the ability to do with the space - on hindsight, that question comes second.

 

I've been doing that for three months now with my O gauge project! Thankfully I'm in no hurry because I have stock related items to worry about first - in O you don't really have the luxury much of being able to just wander into any model shop and walk out with something for your layout! With Mk 1 coaches rtr at £250 a pop and £400 minimum for a loco - and possibly a lot more - you have to be very selective with buying stock to fit your layout rather than, as you say, making the layout fit the stock (or in your case space) available.

 

At the moment all I have is the chassis of an industrial shunter (whilst I carry on building the body - but really must sort pickups out very soon so it can run unassisted), and a Bachmann Brassworks 121 with the body off awaiting the courage to put it through the paint shop from green into blue (it was the only one the shop had, and it was too good a deal to pass by).

 

Don't be put off though - it's better to "waste a week or two" changing your mind than spend 6 months (and who knows how much cash) building something you're never really happy with then ripping it all up and starting again.

[Clifford Road]

I thought it was about time I posted an update on progress! After many helpful comments on here, I had a couple of days away from layout planning and gave serious thought to what I wanted from it. The key aspects being preferably loco-hauled operations, some freight shunting facility and perhaps a small depot, so that my locos do not spend most of their time hidden in the fiddle yard. The station was, I decided, optional although its inclusion would give extra movements.

 

Having drawn a large number of diagrams on the backs of envelopes, beer mats and other useful bits of paper(!) I finally settled on a layout plan that i thought could work. I'm the first to admit that it is designed more for ability to fit into the space, rather than based around a prototype location, but that is (to some extent) what model railways are about in my opinion, making something work for the operator, that resembles actual practice.

 

So to cut a long story short, I've ended up with a terminal station, capable of holding three Mk1s and a loco in one platform and a loco, three Mk1s and a loco in the main platform. This leads to a four road fiddle yard, two sidings of which can hold a loco plus 3 Mk1s, the other two can hold a loco and two Mk1s. In front of the fiddle yard is a five road freight shunting yard, which feeds off the freight and loco arrival and departure road in the station. Finally, in front of the station is a two road TMD, based loosely on Peterborough which will hold seven locos.

 

 

 

All in all, I'm very happy with the final design and I think the operating potential is quite significant really. So, I decided to bite the bullet and press on. Track has now all been laid. Still need to fit the point motors and lay the final two roads in the freight yard, but other than that, the track work is done. I'll upload a couple of pictures tomorrow.

 

Rich

[P.C.M]

Hi Rich,

It's a shame the through station idea didn't work out, maybe one day you could extend this new plan if you get the room one day. Something I would change on the new plan is a cross over in the station so a loco can run round its train.

 

Cheers Peter.

[br-nse-fan]

Hi Rich,

It's a shame the through station idea didn't work out, maybe one day you could extend this new plan if you get the room one day. Something I would change on the new plan is a cross over in the station so a loco can run round its train.

 

Cheers Peter.

 

I agree. With limited space, your trains will always be disappearing to the fiddle yard in order to release the loco. A run around would add additional operation and, IMHO, look better!

 

I'm in the same boat you are, trying to do too much with not enough room! I'll be watching this with great interest!

[Clifford Road]

It's a shame the through station idea didn't work out, maybe one day you could extend this new plan if you get the room one day. Something I would change on the new plan is a cross over in the station so a loco can run round its train.

Hi Peter,

One day (some day??) when the layout gains a room of its own (oh if only!) the idea is to create an island platform through station and also to move the fiddle yard further out to give a run-in to the station. I've actually designed the plan at the scenic break around the break in the baseboard, so a new board could be inserted in the future. Hopefully that would also enable a move to loco plus four or five coaches!

 

 

I agree. With limited space, your trains will always be disappearing to the fiddle yard in order to release the loco. A run around would add additional operation and, IMHO, look better!

 

 

I must admit I left the crossover out thinking that it forced a movement off shed and the loco to be swapped over - however, thinking about your two comments I guess its not really prototypical, so yes I'll go back an add the cross-over I think. At least the option of using it is then there! While the points are screwed to the 9mm ply to stop them moving, the rest of the track is only held in place with double-sided tape at the moment, until I was sure everything was right.

 

I'm in the same boat you are, trying to do too much with not enough room! I'll be watching this with great interest!

 

 

Its always a problem isn't it! One of the things I realised was that from a realistic look, less is better .. but operationally not necessarily the same! But I think its got potential now!

 

I'll post some pictures this afternoon.

 

 

[rob D2]

Looks quite similar to something I planned,

is there going to be a run round on the platform line ?

because i can't see how you get freight to your yard unless it propels back, how do you get your loco round the right end again ?