Tool/Breakdown carriages

[spackz]

Hello,

 

I'm after a Tool/Breakdown carriage to go with a breakdown crane, i've seen that thesignalbox limited edition BTU tool carriage is advertised but is not in my era. Does anybody know of a RTR version or a suitable carriage that could be repainted into an early 1960's breakdown livery? And what livery were they usually painted?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

 

[coachmann]

Choice of breakdown or toolvan would depend on the region. I'm not sure when the Big Four carrriages started to be used as such vehicles either. In 1960, the toolvan at the shed I worked at was black and was of pre-group origin being an ex LNWR bogie coach. Up to at least 1959 it had been a ex Midland clerestory bogie coach and in the early 1950s it had been an ex L&YR 6-wheel coach.

 

Red replaced black but I'm not sure when. If ou are modelling circa 1964 onwards, the Bachmann LMS Period I coaches would suffice for an LMR layout. For S.Region, perhaps an 'Ironclad' coach built from Phoenix parts. For W.Region a Hornby Clerestory and for the E.Region.....You would have to be prepared to build a pre-group kit.

[spackz]

I'm modelling 1960-63 with the flexibilty of the Great Eastern and London Midland depending on what rolling stock i fancy using, further to my first question is the Hornby black breakdown crane suitable for this era or would the yellow livery crane of been around at that time.

 

Thanks again

[craigwelsh]

I'm modelling 1960-63 with the flexibilty of the Great Eastern and London Midland depending on what rolling stock i fancy using, further to my first question is the Hornby black breakdown crane suitable for this era or would the yellow livery crane of been around at that time.

 

Thanks again

I think you'd be looking at plain black or possibly the red one rather than yellow which normally comes with the red painted BR arrows on it.

 

Don't forget those cranes are for the REALLY big accidents and didn't go out often or to many incidents if possible. Your van would have the more usual jacks etc in it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ER, some really ancient stuff lingered, but when the great cull of big four stock was underway, Gresley brakes were popular. The all wooden body construction making for easy modification was factor. Black (which faded to greys) up to 1960, then Gulf Red (which peeled and faded like mad) 1960 - 1962, then it was all too confusing for words, my memory is of any shade of grey, some people say it was an olive. A lot of the Black vehicles never got gulf red, and just carried on fading

 

Take the Hornby Gresley brake, or a Kirk kit of something like a 3 compartment brake (big load area), and paint it whatever you fancy...

[60B]

Inverness had a Thompson BG that managed to hold onto red paint till it was scrapped in the last year: http://www.departmentals.com/photo/095022. Its likely that it wasn't moved to this role till the late 60s It probably had benches inside for the staff. Of course, to create a similar vehicle, it would require a bit of bashing. I THINK the closet would be the Kirk kit and widen the doors.

[Guest stuartp]

The Hornby crane is based on the Comans Sheldon 75 tonners of (I think) 1957 or 1959 and were delivered in bright red. Their introduction coincided with an instruction that all cranes were to be painted red on overhaul although the former black livery hung on for a bit longer. Yellow came in in the 70s. Tool van liveries generally followed the crane although there wre no doubt numerous variations.

 

The black - gulf red - olive green - yellow/grey progression was for Civil Engineer's stock, breakdown cranes belonged to the Motive Power department (but were often purloined for larger engineering lifts such as bridge girders).

 

Tool/packing/riding vans - Gresley coaches, especially full brakes, were popular on the ER but probably a bit later than your era. Kingmoor's crane in 1970 was a Cowans 75 tonner accompanied by a Gresley van, an LNWR or possibly CR van, and an LMS Period 1 non-corridor brake third as riding van, all in red. Hurlford's crane in 1960 was a Cowans 30 tonner in black, with an ex-LYR tool van, a HR and later an NER 6-wheeled brake and a Gresley riding van. Mk1s eventually replaced earlier vehicles from the 70s onwards.

 

Tool vans were just that - mobile workshops with jacks, winches, re-railing gear, benches etc. The packing van (which could be anything from a 4 wheel open wagon to a bogie coach) contained wooden chocks and rail, ropes, etc if not carried on the crane's match truck. The riding van contained messing facilities and bunks for the crew, and usually the guard's compartment. The vans could be sent out without the crane for minor jobs.

 

The older Hornby generic Gresley, Stanier and SR/GW coaches are great for converting to breakdown vans and can still be had new fairly cheaply or second hand even more cheaply.

[Poor Old Bruce]

The Hornby crane is based on the Comans Sheldon 75 tonners of (I think) 1957 or 1959 and were delivered in bright red. Their introduction coincided with an instruction that all cranes were to be painted red on overhaul although the former black livery hung on for a bit longer. Yellow came in in the 70s. Tool van liveries generally followed the crane although there wre no doubt numerous variations.

 

The black - gulf red - olive green - yellow/grey progression was for Civil Engineer's stock, breakdown cranes belonged to the Motive Power department (but were often purloined for larger engineering lifts such as bridge girders).

 

Tool/packing/riding vans - Gresley coaches, especially full brakes, were popular on the ER but probably a bit later than your era. Kingmoor's crane in 1970 was a Cowans 75 tonner accompanied by a Gresley van, an LNWR or possibly CR van, and an LMS Period 1 non-corridor brake third as riding van, all in red. Hurlford's crane in 1960 was a Cowans 30 tonner in black, with an ex-LYR tool van, a HR and later an NER 6-wheeled brake and a Gresley riding van. Mk1s eventually replaced earlier vehicles from the 70s onwards.

 

Tool vans were just that - mobile workshops with jacks, winches, re-railing gear, benches etc. The packing van (which could be anything from a 4 wheel open wagon to a bogie coach) contained wooden chocks and rail, ropes, etc if not carried on the crane's match truck. The riding van contained messing facilities and bunks for the crew, and usually the guard's compartment. The vans could be sent out without the crane for minor jobs.

 

The older Hornby generic Gresley, Stanier and SR/GW coaches are great for converting to breakdown vans and can still be had new fairly cheaply or second hand even more cheaply.

The 75T cranes were delivered in 1961 and were in lined red, I think Paul Bartlett's site has some photos. Some of the LM's cranes prior to that were black with LNWR (BR Mixed Traffic) lining. This month's photo on the Irwell calendar shows part of Eastleigh's crane in 1955 which is black with lots of bits picked out in red.

 

LM trains usually had three old coaches, one for staff with a few of the windows blocked up to hide the kitchen area etc and two for tools and packing which had all the windows blocked and two inset sliding doors fitted on each side. These were either black with yellow lettering or red with white lettering. Old coaches were used to allow the trains to run up to 60MPH. In 1962 Dundee shed still had two Midland Railway Clayton 6-wheel coaches from their BDT although they didn't look as if they had been used in anger for a while.

[hmrspaul]

The 75T cranes were delivered in 1961 and were in lined red, I think Paul Bartlett's site has some photos. Some of the LM's cranes prior to that were black with LNWR (BR Mixed Traffic) lining. This month's photo on the Irwell calendar shows part of Eastleigh's crane in 1955 which is black with lots of bits picked out in red.

 

LM trains usually had three old coaches, one for staff with a few of the windows blocked up to hide the kitchen area etc and two for tools and packing which had all the windows blocked and two inset sliding doors fitted on each side. These were either black with yellow lettering or red with white lettering. Old coaches were used to allow the trains to run up to 60MPH. In 1962 Dundee shed still had two Midland Railway Clayton 6-wheel coaches from their BDT although they didn't look as if they had been used in anger for a while.

 

Paul

 

It just so happens I have been working on a project to scan all my ER engineers stock. The first of these are now published at

"DE32XXXX BR Eastern Region departmental coaches" (C#1875178) – 94 photographs

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c1875178.html

 

This includes some BTU. You will see other breakdown stock in some other collections - including the BR Fish vans (a BTU version has been available from one of the manufacturers fairly recently).

 

The breakdown train vehicles were painted red from at least June 1959. The repaint schedule is underframes of wood framed vehicles unpainted, all fittings black laquer, undercoat of steel framed vehicles freight stock red primer, finish coat of black laquer. Metal Bodies of passenger stock design one coat of pink undercoat and 1 coat of red enamel with, for carriages one coat of finishing coat varnish. Wood bodies did not have the undercoat, except new sheeting which had a primer. Ex freight design were the same but without the varnish.

 

{note that at that time other engineers coaches and vans continued to be black, the livery altered to drab (olive) green in January 1963. The BTU continued to be red. }

 

Cranes of interest, as mentioned by Bruce may be in

 

"Heavy Duty breakdown cranes 95xxx 96xxx" (C#1811538) – 64 photographs

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c1811538.html

 

Regard

 

Paul Bartlett

York

[spackz]

Cheers for the replies, what does everyone reckon of the Hornby breakdown crane? i've seen pictures of the old Hornby dublo one in red which has a more quality feel, would this be the better option? Lucky for me my grandad has one he might be willing to let me have.

[Dave777]

As well as Paul's site above there's this one too:

 

http://www.departmentals.com/

[coachmann]

The loco shed crane that attended the removal or rerailing of wagons after the Dinting derailment in 1982 was black. It carried gold shaded red lettering on the 'cabside'.... I seem to remember it was from Wigan MPD.

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Some of the OLE maintainence stock was stabled at Romford during the 60's and 70's. Some still retained black livery but most was in olive green. As stated above most was converted from Gresley stock but this was gradually replaced by Mk 1 stock. The Olive green used to fade as well, sometimes to a pale shade. There used to be an old GE six wheel third painted in engineers black complete with oil lighting 'pots' in a siding on the up side between Manor Park and Stratford stations until about 1966/67!

[hmrspaul]

As well as Paul's site above there's this one too:

 

http://www.departmentals.com/

 

and for cranes http://www.ontrackplant.com/

 

Paul Bartlett

[hmrspaul]

Some of the OLE maintainence stock was stabled at Romford during the 60's and 70's. Some still retained black livery but most was in olive green. As stated above most was converted from Gresley stock but this was gradually replaced by Mk 1 stock. The Olive green used to fade as well, sometimes to a pale shade. There used to be an old GE six wheel third painted in engineers black complete with oil lighting 'pots' in a siding on the up side between Manor Park and Stratford stations until about 1966/67!

 

Some photographs of the OLE stock at Romford in BR Eastern Region BR Electrification engineers coaches - 10 photographs

http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/show_collection.php?id=20248

 

The strange purply colour is how olive drab weathers in the south.

 

Paul Bartlett

[PhilJ W]

I had allways assumed that the purple colour was faded Gulf Red. I used to pass the sidings several times a day and the paint on the steel panelled stock seemed to wear better than on the wooden stock.