Pullman Colours on models

[dorkins]

Hello All,

 

 

 

I notice there's a bit of variation between the colours used

by Hornby and Bachmann for their Pullman coaches. The Hornby

colours seem lighter, the Bachmann colours seem richer.

 

 

I seem to remember someone from Bachmann being good enough

to comment elsewhere that they used actual colour chips from

real Pullman coaches as the basis for their model colours.

 

 

So I have some questions, if anyone can help:

 

Did the prototype rolling stock have a significant variation

in paint shades? Were the colours prone to fading?

 

 

Have Hornby painted their models so as to reflect a scale

"distance" effect; i.e. the colours are weaker to relfect

a more distanct viewing point?

 

Is that also why there BR engine green is a bluer tint?

 

Or is it perhaps a "weathered", or faded effect?

 

 

Does anyone tone down their Bachmann models to get a better

"fit" when the models are run in the same train? If so,

how? A spray of varnish with a dash of white or gray?

 

 

If I built a kit, or wanted to spray a Keen Systems body,

and I used proprietary paint colours, would the colours look

more like the Hornby colours or the Bachmann? Would it

depend on the brand?

 

Any pointers gratefully recieved,

 

 

Dorkins

[coachmann]

A whole can of worms there Dorkins. The original Precision Paints range had two colours that could be used for BR locos. I and some of my colleages (by pure coincidence) chose GWR 1945 Middle Chrome Green for BR steam locos, which is to the yellow or end of the spectrum. BR was supposed to have adopted GWR loco green because it was a proven colour that remained stable.

 

Precision also produce a BR loco green that is to the blue end of the spectrum. It might be correct, it might not. At 68 years of age, I am no longer sure! It fits peoples idea of Brunswick green, which is what BR labelled GWR Middle Chrome green.

 

Bahmann's BR green locos carry a rich green that is close to the Precision BR loco green. It looks like an oily rag has been passed over it. To my eyes, Hornby's green is too light, bleached and chalky.

 

I cannot comment on the pullman colours, but you could compare them with paint form Precision.

 

Larry Goddard

[bertiedog]

Down the path to colour match on Railways......it courts a very, very, big headache, and you have discovered the problem, matching shades.

 

It is nigh impossible, the Railway Companies did not use BS standards, they simply do not exist! In later days BR did reference paints to colour standards, and stable dyes and compounds exist for inks, dyes and industries that use colour.

 

Even the BS modern standards only give a formula, which is made up to a sample and tested, (we use to make the equipment).

 

Each paint maker may alter the suspension medium, dryers, degree of solid pigment, and inclusions like matting, and even then the method of panting varies, along with the undercoat, and varnishing, and then you have to throw in the lighting it is viewed under.

 

Add in the colour blindness of 40% of the nation to some degree, ageing, (of both paint and people), chemical reactions with pigments and solvents, surface finish, oxidisation of the paint, or varnish, UV fading, ......

 

So do not get caught up in trying to get an exact shade, get a match if possible, but real coaches varied as much as locos, they were all over the place.

 

Pullman colours happen to be stable types, but do fade, and were varnished etc, which alters the colour.

 

So what is a maker to follow?, there are surviving samples, but these are aged now as well. The only hope is the original formula, but few exist, colourmen were notoriously secretive about commercial paint, only formulas exist where a company specified the mix in the contract, or did it themselves to written instructions.

 

Swindon could never agree with Wolverhampton on GWR green, let alone what to call it, never rely on a name, the modern names are for BS types, not railway colours. Apple Green in not a good starting pint for LNER green, Apple Green is defined for BS, but it is not LNER Apple green!!!

 

I very much doubt that Hornby and Bachmann will ever match, it is simply impossible unless they used the same paint and methods.......and even then it may differ from the perception of the real thing.

 

 

Stephen.

[coachmann]

Those of us outside the RMweb arena managed very well for a good many years to paint and line locos in acceptable colours. Bachmann's BR green is pretty close to acceptable in the "expensive" world. Hornby's green is not.

 

Now I realize the thoerists will jump in and say "ah, but what is acceptable". You won't draw any professionals into that argument!

[bertiedog]

It's funny that the current Hornby green has a chalky look, it is as if the plastic surface is showing in a way. I never had any queries as to the colours I used for locos, I got them mixed by Keeps to a sample or my description!

The only troublesome one I remember, (both the loco and customer), was a Japanese brass loco with a gloss finish all over, and a black "Russian Steel" boiler casing, which had to have multiple micro layers of grey blue translucent varnish to achieve the effect, more in the reflection than the colour of the base coat.

1890's H0 locos in a fully lined out multi colour panels, with gold lining, and a black boiler all gloss......are very difficult.......and it had shaded letters.....no transfers!

 

Stephen.

[dorkins]

Thank You to everyone who responded.

 

Much more to it than I imagined. Very informed responses, I'm grateful.

 

I'll just run them as they come, then.

 

Dorkins

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Dorkins.

 

Just as an aside, I am currently doing a few Pullmans - thread here... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/18323-1928-pullman-stock/ and have decided to use the Railmatch shades and transfer lining.

 

I note that you're considering using some of the Keen Systems bodies. I do have some Precision labels overlays going spare which should match the Bachmann paint shade. One is for "Ione" - a Kitchen 3rd. One is for Car No.79 - a brake 3rd. Youre welcome to them both if you want them. Just PM me if you're interested.

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[dorkins]

Hi Sean,

 

Yes, I've been watching your thread with much interest.

 

Thank You for your kind offer. I'm just at the beginning of this - I have a single

12 wheel vehicle, Monaco. A beautiful model, to my eye, just beautiful. It was

when I started to dig that I noticed something was going on with the colours.

 

If I ever get as far as etched sides, I'll come back to you. I think my next purchase

will be the second book in the series by Antony Ford. I'm a bit anoraksic - I like to

swot up.

 

regards,

 

dorkins

[the penguin of doom]

Hi Sean,

 

Yes, I've been watching your thread with much interest.

 

Thank You for your kind offer. I'm just at the beginning of this - I have a single

12 wheel vehicle, Monaco. A beautiful model, to my eye, just beautiful. It was

when I started to dig that I noticed something was going on with the colours.

 

If I ever get as far as etched sides, I'll come back to you. I think my next purchase

will be the second book in the series by Antony Ford. I'm a bit anoraksic - I like to

swot up.

 

regards,

 

dorkins

 

Hi Dorkins.

 

No problem re the sides, if you do want them in future, let me know. I'm sure they'd be good for the Keen Systems coaches too and I did order them to match the Bachmann scheme. For the record, they are pretty close, however, you can order them for the Hornby colours too.

 

If you're watching my thread, check in over the next week. I have been lining the Kitchen Third using HMRS transfers and although its very time consuming, I'm happy with the results so far. I have used the Railmatch paints and although I've not lined the coach up with the Bachmann MK1's I think it will be close enough!..... I'll be posting pictures once its done, so keep looking in.

 

Just as I'm typing, I remember that Dave, (I think), posted a link to the Precision labels web site on my thread. When I had a look at the link, I saw they do overlays for the MK1 Pullmans too. Apparently, the Cream is a little too deep on the Bachmann models??? Don't know how many you've got to match up, but may be an option for complete uniformity????

 

Finally, 12 wheel Pullmans??? If only I had an excuse to model one, but NE region, 1965 - 1967?...... Hmmmn.

 

Cheers for now.

 

Sean.

[Gwiwer]

It is always worth bearing in mind that no matter what shade the works applied it could and did appear different in varying lighting conditions and responded to light and time in traffic as well.

 

So an ex-works vehicle might be the "official" colour (whatever that might be!) but when seen a month later could be faded, dirtier or just the same. Traditional coach-building had the painters apply several layers of undercoat all of which were then rubbed back to smooth the surface before multiple layers of the livery top coat were applied and - all except the final coat - were also rubbed back. A suitable varnish might be applied as well though was not always considered necessary as this method of painting produced a very durable and thick layer which came out of the works with a high gloss already.

 

More recent technology has speeded up the process no end but at the cost of losing the richness and depth of finish, and a lot of the durability.

[Steven B]

If the likes of the Severn Valley Railway can't get their colours to match I wouldn't worry too much about a slight miss-match in model form:

 

 

There are so many factors that determined the colour of a loco/coach/wagon that it's a wonder any two were the same shade.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[coachmann]

If a rivet is in the wrong place or if a diesel cab isn't quite right, people on here get agitated. So what makes paintwork so different? Two well known model paint manufacturers have gone to a lot of trouble to produce accurate colours for modellers. These are your starting point and it is pointless using an incorrect shade of paint. Better to use the correct shade then weather it afterwards.

 

What I'm saying is, anything goes is not a scientific approach.

[Talltim]

While it's not a problem to have colour variations within a standard livery, it is important that it isn't obvious that all of one type of vehicle are one shade while all of another are another shade. Some judicious weathering/varnishing on a couple of vehicles should sort this tho