Hattons announce LMS twins

[Andy Y]

Following on from the success of their Class 14 and the forthcoming Class 28 project with Heljan of Denmark, Hattons and Dapol are pleased to announce

the launch of the LMS prototype diesels 10000 and 10001 in OO scale.

 

 

Hattons of course are aware a retailer has announced that they have discussed commissioning the 10000/1 locos with another manufacturer. In view of the capital investment and that they have been working with Dapol since mid-2009 on this project plus the fact that they have an earlier mid-February 2011 delivery date they have made the decision to continue with production of this model.

 

The specification for the model will be as follows:

 

• All wheel drive

• Sprung Buffers

• RP25 wheel profiles with space for EM/P4 conversion

• All wheel pickup

• Centrally mounted Dapol 5 pole acute skew wound motor

• Flywheels

• Separate Handrails and wipers

• Accurate nose detailing

• Bufferbeam piping

• Etched see through roof grill

• Detailed side grills

• Fully detailed underframe

• Yellow and Red LED lighting

• 21 pin DCC socket

• Full metal chassis

• NEM coupling pocket

• Space for sound decoder

• Split frame chassis

• Pinpoint axles

• Seperately fitted roof horns

• Cab Lights

• Brass Worksplate

 

Liveries will all be printed. Chromed LMS letters on 10000 and numbers on both locomotives will be factory fitted.

 

The model will be produced to represent each loco in almost every stage of their lives and will feature:

 

 

The delivery time frames for each of the batches is shown below:

 

 

10000 was introduced by the LMS 3 weeks before the railway was nationalised on 1st January 1948 and 10001 by BR in 1949. Both loco’s were used out of London Euston and St Pancras stations when they were introduced but were transferred to the Southern Region in 1953 to test them alongside the other Southern prototypes. In 1955 both were sent to Derby for full overhaul

 

 

All items will be preorderable at www.ehattons.com/10000

 

Sign up for news of this and their other OO gauge commissions at www.ehattons.com/ltdnews

[Andy Y]

Information now in public domain.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Now that is interesting!

 

Dave.

[The Stationmaster]

Where's my gas turbine guv? (presumably it will come after the SR locos have been announced?).

[Jenny Emily]

I wonder what this means for the Rails/Bachmann version? Can the market sustain two different models of such a rare prototye? It isn't clear just how far on the Rails/Bachmann project is.

 

It does seem strange that in the last few months we have had turn up proposed from multiple manufacturers/collaberations some pretty exotic stuff. I find it weird how they all seem to be thinking of the same rare models at the same time.

[coachmann]

Even to a dyed in the wood steam man this is exciting news this morning. I wonder how many realize that to a your boy in the early 1950s, these were indeed the latest technology...................................... along with Staniers final two Pacifics (!!!)

[Dan Griffin]

• All wheel drive

• All wheel pickup

• 21 pin DCC socket

• Split frame chassis

 

 

 

 

these three main factors on a split frame chassis? do we dare hope people can learn from this and that other split framers like the b1 can be upgraded??

 

hmmm, LMS twins. now two options for a model. may have to pre order. this is good news. thumbs up.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I wonder what this means for the Rails/Bachmann version?...

With my 'demonstrated achievement' hat on, Bachmann have succeeded in knocking out a few OO diesel models over the past couple of decades.

... It does seem strange that in the last few months we have had turn up proposed from multiple manufacturers/collaborations some pretty exotic stuff. I find it weird how they all seem to be thinking of the same rare models at the same time.

The market is saturated with the BR production classes: there is practically nowhere else to go for new subjects in BR diesel traction. Some manufacturer will presumably pick up classes 16, 21, 29, once all the more charismatic prototype machines are in the bag.

these three main factors on a split frame chassis? do we dare hope people can learn from this and that other split framers like the b1 can be upgraded? ...

Split frame pick up is potentially a very different thing in a twin bogie model. Hornby use this technique on their class 50 and 30/31 models as an example, and the split frame element is confined to the bogies. Not readily applicable to the split frame technique used for the Bach steam models. Completely new chassis tooling required.

[Garry D100]

Mmm interesting.

 

I think a lot of peoples first reaction will be "Blooming Heck, more duplication" or words to that effect.

But its more likely to be purely a coincidence, and personally I think we will see more of this situation as we see over time a reduction in what prototypes are left to model.

 

[bertiedog]

Anybody doing the Fell yet..................? ! !

Stephen.

[frobisher]

Duplication of special comissions - interesting to say the least.

 

At a rough guess Bachmann and Dapol are both fully engaged already (so ultimately don't care beyond whose is going to be best), so it's really down to the Rails and Hattons if anyone is to blink first. If both shops think there's mileage there, good luck to them, but I can't see either of them backing down if they have a high enough investment to date, and this way they both have product (because I cannot see these rivals supplying each other). Is the market now diluted between the pair of them? Damn straight, but alternatively it does mean that anyone who wants to buy one of the Twins will probably be able to get one now.

 

[sPECULATION]

So what it appears to be is that Hattons have been at this a while, and Rails earlier announcement gave them pause for thought. They paused, thought "what the heck" and are proceeding on the basis they'll hit market first in all likelyhood. Whether the Rails project was in reaction to hearing about this being in development or completely independent is a moot point now.

[/sPECULATION]

 

This is patently not a case of Bachmann vs Dapol though, rather than Rails vs Hattons.

[Chris Higgs]

Probably just means I won't pre-order either, just wait to see which is better, and hopefully pick up some bargains when over-production is realised.

 

As Dapol's 'firsts' in the market have tended to disappoint in some way or other, especially when they rush to hit a deadline (OO Pendolino, N Gauge 14XX, first batch of 9Fs to mention a few), I suspect I will end up with a Bachmann one. Having said that, the Dapol 9F did eventually kill off the planned Farish version, even though I suspect the latter would have been a better and cheaper model.

[frobisher]

I'm eagerly awaiting the first Hattons/Dapol are 'bullying' Rails/Bachmann post ...

 

I'm worried about the inevitability of that too

 

This Hattons project does not appear to be a limited edition as theres no mention of it that I can see. Perhaps this is a dawning of a new market of secondary manufacturing. A manufacturer will subcontract their manufacturing expertise for a new smaller batch produced range of models to be stocked as a regular product, and sold by retailers/organisations that can afford the R&D and stocking overheads. If this is the case, we could very well see some interesting developments in locos as well as stock in the future.

 

It does actually look very encouraging from that point of view. If there are two retailers who know the size of the market, it's Rails and Hattons and I don't expect them to have gone into this lightly.

[frobisher]

As Dapol's 'firsts' in the market have tended to disappoint in some way or other, especially when they rush to hit a deadline (OO Pendolino, N Gauge 14XX, first batch of 9Fs to mention a few), I suspect I will end up with a Bachmann one. Having said that, the Dapol 9F did eventually kill off the planned Farish version, even though I suspect the latter would have been a better and cheaper model.

 

Looking at the "clues" this will probably be Dapol's second 00 loco to market as the 22 should be getting tooled about now as well. I don't think they're "rushing" to a deadline with the Twins as Rails have set delivery of theirs to the beginning of 2012 which is a whole year after the Hattons one. This sounds pretty much like when it would have landed regardless.

 

I'm not sure what you thought was disappointing about the 14XX though. Good little runner, much better than the previous alternatives and a step forward compared to pretty much every Farish steamer of the day. It was a landmark model in UK N in many ways. We now expect much better of course, but it's partly due to that little bit of trailblazing that we're seeing Dapol as a serious manufacturer these days.

[Garry D100]

This is patently not a case of Bachmann vs Dapol though, rather than Rails vs Hattons.

And as we know (or should know) there is nothing wrong with this.

Its, as they say, business.

It happens with any number of other products, many developing same or similar products, but one will get to the market first.

We should be pleased to have a choice

[birdseyecircus]

With my 'demonstrated achievement' hat on, Bachmann have succeeded in knocking out a few OO diesel models over the past couple of decades.

 

The market is saturated with the BR production classes: there is practically nowhere else to go for new subjects in BR diesel traction. Some manufacturer will presumably pick up classes 16, 21, 29, once all the more charismatic prototype machines are in the bag.

 

We are still awaiting a decent class 73 which with it's numerous liveries and being around in the last years of steam still offers a manufactuer a decent return on tooling costs.

 

Makes you wonder if there is still someone to announce ANOTHER class 23 & Co-Bo!

 

I just find the whole situation puzzling and a little dissapointing.

 

Paul

[frobisher]

We are still awaiting a decent class 73 which with it's numerous liveries and being around in the last years of steam still offers a manufactuer a decent return on tooling costs.

 

I think the more announcements like this we get, the more likely it is we'll see it, but maybe not as a commision. If the market is bouyant enough to support these commissions, then hitting it with retooled, popular locos to the same quality is sustainable, especially if you can get limited editions of these out through the likes of Rails, Hattons and Kernow at the same time.

 

Hell, it worked for me (he says looking at his two BR blue 86's in N...).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... [sPECULATION]

So what it appears to be is that Hattons have been at this a while, and Rails earlier announcement gave them pause for thought. They paused, thought "what the heck" and are proceeding on the basis they'll hit market first in all likelyhood. Whether the Rails project was in reaction to hearing about this being in development or completely independent is a moot point now.

[/sPECULATION] ...

But then again on Hattons site there is this, dated 14th June 2010:

"Following the great success of the Hattons and Heljan Class 14 project we are delighted to announce our next exclusive Special Commission. This will take the form of the Metropolitan-Vickers Class 28 Co-Bo locomotive. ...Delivery is anticipated during the first quarter of 2011."

 

Do we suppose they had forgotten that they had commissioned the LMS twins for delivery in Q1 2011? I smell commercial manoeuvres here: they want a piece of the action on the LMS Twins.

[Alco]

I read this with interest and keep wondering when and why someone wont do the class 21/29? I would have thought there was more interest in this pair.

Regards

Bob

[amdaley]

Go for it & may the best model win:lol:

[Guest Phil]

But then again on Hattons site there is this, dated 14th June 2010:

"Following the great success of the Hattons and Heljan Class 14 project we are delighted to announce our next exclusive Special Commission. This will take the form of the Metropolitan-Vickers Class 28 Co-Bo locomotive. ...Delivery is anticipated during the first quarter of 2011."

 

Do we suppose they had forgotten that they had commissioned the LMS twins for delivery in Q1 2011? I smell commercial manoeuvres here: they want a piece of the action on the LMS Twins.

 

Well spotted 34C !!

 

With my 'demonstrated achievement' hat on, Bachmann have succeeded in knocking out a few OO diesel models over the past couple of decades.

 

The market is saturated with the BR production classes: there is practically nowhere else to go for new subjects in BR diesel traction. Some manufacturer will presumably pick up classes 16, 21, 29, once all the more charismatic prototype machines are in the bag.

 

I'm not so sure about that. We don't totally need "new".

 

IIRC we had a reasonable model of a class 47 way back then, which was later spoiled by ugly masking lines.

This was added to by Lima, then Heljan - all of which sold in largish numbers. Then Bachmann came along with a state of the art model, but Aunty Vi still released her version - making it at least five RTR class 47s in 4mm scale.

 

Apply the same logic to the class 40 which has been released by Jouef, Lima and Bachmann. If a decent class 40 of the quality of the latest diesel releases were to be released onto the market I'm positive sales would be equally as great as the more recent "odd classes" released by Heljan and Bachmann.

 

There are a lot of people - collectors as well as modellers who would appreciate such refined updates.

 

The same goes without saying for the class 25 of course.

 

 

It is quite clear from the recent Blue Pullman events that there have discussions between retailers and manufacturers over potential products, as there always have been. Perhaps because the "new" market is shrinking, the "new" products are far more in the radar and in the news now ? I do hope both parties in this particular case can achieve enough sales of their products to make it worthwhile - and guess that unlike the BP, both of these manufacturers are too far down the road for either to pull out.

 

What is more unbelievable is that five years ago, who'd have thought there'd be RTR LMS twins from three different manufacturers.

 

 

 

Time to start harping on about class 116 DMUs again I feel !!!!

[frobisher]

But then again on Hattons site there is this, dated 14th June 2010:

"Following the great success of the Hattons and Heljan Class 14 project we are delighted to announce our next exclusive Special Commission. This will take the form of the Metropolitan-Vickers Class 28 Co-Bo locomotive. ...Delivery is anticipated during the first quarter of 2011."

 

Do we suppose they had forgotten that they had commissioned the LMS twins for delivery in Q1 2011? I smell commercial manoeuvres here: they want a piece of the action on the LMS Twins.

 

I don't think they'd forgotten anything. Given Dapol's normal lead times (they've been at the Class 22 since March 2008), I'm inclinded to believe the press release here. No sane manufacturer would commit to a 7-8 month turnaround on CAD, tooling and manufacture. What this announcement looks like to me is they hit the last opportunity to bail out and decided not to. The CAD was ready for tooling and at that point your rather comitted if you do it, less so if you don't (and try to sell the CAD work to Bachmann perhaps..?).

 

Sometimes announcements happen on their own schedule due to commercial concerns from a variety of parties. My company had to sit on a press release concerning the project we were working on for 3-4 months after it could have gone out due to the requirement to get it approved by the other parties involved (and you don't screw with Microsoft ) It went out, with no ammendments after that delay. Nothing remotely like that happening here, but Dapol had to have confidence they could deliver, Hattons had to have confidence they still wanted to do it, and perhaps that's what they've spent the last month going over.

[cctransuk]

Well - I have pre-ordered a Hattons / Dapol one, as I pre-ordered the Rails / Bachmann one when it was announced.

 

However, I won't be taking delivery of both of them!

 

Ideally, even if it takes the extra year, Rails / Bachmann will stick with it and I'll cancel the Hattons / Dapol one. Only if Rails / Bachmann pull out will I (reluctantly) opt for the Hattons / Dapol one.

 

I have examples of both Dapol and Bachmann locos, and I know which I prefer !!

 

I doubt that I'll be the only one, so I hope that Hattons don't get too worked-up over the level of pre-orders that they receive.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[CullingworthGNR]

For me, it'll come down to price and performance. Dapol's N stuff has come on leaps and bounds, but whether the Class 22 matches up to the N Gauge 67 we don't yet know. A great battle nonetheless!

[vac_basher]

First the blue Pullman cock up. Now this....

I think the manufactures should really get together every few months or whenever and sit down and talk their plans over, because what with the recent developments it's all very confusing for the consumers, such as you or I.

I've already got a Rails twin on order; what am I supposed to do now.......