Oy, youth - get that sheet on proper!

[Chrislock]

Greetings again.

 

I am continuing to build up a range of 2mm Midland Railway stock circa 1900-1910, and have been wading through books and old photographs.

It seems that around the turn of the 20th century, many goods were conveyed in open wagons, sheeted or otherwise - obvious exceptions livestock, I guess, and possibly gunpowder!

Is this assumption fair, or is it just the photos I've seen?

Clearly there is no point in converting/ building many vans if that is the case.

Thanks

Chris

[jwealleans]

There have been articles about this and threads on this forum in the past. From memory even by the 1930s only 25% of vehicles were covered (vans) and I think the proportion was smaller before grouping. That percentage includes minerals, though, which means that you can get away with more vans in mixed goods trains. I'd have a look around and you should find chapter and verse on the subject.

[asmay2002]

I am continuing to build up a range of 2mm Midland Railway stock circa 1900-1910, and have been wading through books and old photographs.

It seems that around the turn of the 20th century, many goods were conveyed in open wagons, sheeted or otherwise - obvious exceptions livestock, I guess, and possibly gunpowder!

Is this assumption fair, or is it just the photos I've seen?

 

Bob Essery's book "An illustrated history of Midland Wagons Volume 1" has a table of stats on page 39. Of the 112604 wagons the MR owned in 1895 59436 were high sided opens with another 20499 low sided opens. Then there were another 21260 coal wagons. Covered goods wagons (i.e.vans) numbered 1746 i.e. about 1.6% of the stock. You may need a van on your layout! You might also get away with a cattle wagon (1465). Gunpowder wagons were rare - they had 9. Of course what you choose to build for your layout will depend a lot on the sort of traffic you are modelling. You might need a number of cattle wagons above what the overall stats suggest if you have a meat works on the layout and this would also give an excuse to model one of their 90 meat vans.

 

We all love an excuse for the more exotic wagons but in reality they were rare.

 

Andy May

[Pennine MC]

Agreed with the learned gents above, the early years are not my interest but my understanding is that the trend towards covered vans for more general merchandise was slow and probably only took off post-WW2. Even in the 1966 census in the OPC 'BR Wagons', general merchandise vans and opens look to be (very roughly) equivalent in numbers. It was probably a gradual shift in the relative costs of construction vs. labour.

[Chrislock]

Bob Essery's book "An illustrated history of Midland Wagons Volume 1" has a table of stats on page 39. Of the 112604 wagons the MR owned in 1895 59436 were high sided opens with another 20499 low sided opens. Then there were another 21260 coal wagons. Covered goods wagons (i.e.vans) numbered 1746 i.e. about 1.6% of the stock. You may need a van on your layout! You might also get away with a cattle wagon (1465). Gunpowder wagons were rare - they had 9. Of course what you choose to build for your layout will depend a lot on the sort of traffic you are modelling. You might need a number of cattle wagons above what the overall stats suggest if you have a meat works on the layout and this would also give an excuse to model one of their 90 meat vans

 

Andy, that is really useful information, thanks.

I have been buying up such books over the past few months, but am finding the rarer ones very expensive in some cases eg Through The Limestone Hills by Bill Hudson, essential for the Midland modeller of the peak district, well out of print.

The other problem is knowing which volume to buy, so thanks for that.

 

The statistics confirm my expectations, that vans were probably ony used when essential, as I guess they cost considerably more to build, not that that seems to have been a major issue in 1900.

Simplifying those ratios, and using 1500 ( cattle) as a base figure ( and ignoring gunpowder vans) That would mean, out of 68 wagons,

High sided open = 39 : Low sided open = 13 : coal wagons = 14: vans =1 : cattle = 1

 

A pattern which is not always reflected on models I've seen of the period!!

That would be fairly typically represented in this short good train from 1910, which I have posted on another thread ( though of course it is probably a pick-up):

 

 

Or this one :

 

 

Of course, as you say, a particular area would have a different mix as required, though the relative rarity of vans is undeniable it seems.I am assuming from those figures that most factories and businesses would have their requirements arriving in open, sheeted wagons. I have a feeling I've read that on the Nickey Line even paper cam and went in open sided sheeted wagons originally - hence the rather whimsical title of the thread!!

 

Pennine MC that is a fine Tom Petty track you quote from. Freefalling I think.

 

Chris

[Kenton]

We all love an excuse for the more exotic wagons but in reality they were rare.

Well that's what makes them exotic and makes them so appealing.

 

As said, everything depends on what scene is being viewed.

A train in the Welsh valleys or other coal mining areas is going to be almost completely open coal wagons.

A cattle dock is almost certainly only going to have cattle wagons.

A siding at a racecourse station will have a very high proportion of horse boxes.

A china clay ....

An ordinance factory or military depot ...

Vans were used predominantly used for perishable easily damaged goods.

 

The main reasons for dictating the types of vehicles used was the type of goods being transported. Throughout the life of the railways from the earliest days before steam to at least the end of steam the most significant goods were coal, stone and wood - all of which required open wagons. So they were built in vast numbers. As other more exotic goods were transported grain, potatoes, ... these were generally in sacks and other industrial products generally in wooden boxes or crates ... these could be man-handled into opens and sheeted ... even cattle and horses were transported in open wagons until it was recognised that this was far from satisfactory and more vans had been produced - then coverted and redesigned specific for livestock. Other "specialist" vehicles were designed and introduced as more exotic traffic was required.

 

So the bare statistics can be very misleading far more consideration has to be given to the scene being modeled.

[Chrislock]

Well that's what makes them exotic and makes them so appealing.

 

As said, everything depends on what scene is being viewed.

A train in the Welsh valleys or other coal mining areas is going to be almost completely open coal wagons.

A cattle dock is almost certainly only going to have cattle wagons.

A siding at a racecourse station will have a very high proportion of horse boxes.

A china clay ....

An ordinance factory or military depot ...

Vans were used predominantly used for perishable easily damaged goods.

 

The main reasons for dictating the types of vehicles used was the type of goods being transported. Throughout the life of the railways from the earliest days before steam to at least the end of steam the most significant goods were coal, stone and wood - all of which required open wagons. So they were built in vast numbers. As other more exotic goods were transported grain, potatoes, ... these were generally in sacks and other industrial products generally in wooden boxes or crates ... these could be man-handled into opens and sheeted ... even cattle and horses were transported in open wagons until it was recognised that this was far from satisfactory and more vans had been produced - then coverted and redesigned specific for livestock. Other "specialist" vehicles were designed and introduced as more exotic traffic was required.

 

So the bare statistics can be very misleading far more consideration has to be given to the scene being modeled.

 

Hi Kenton,

I suppose the point is that there should in general be rather fewer vans in general in goods trains prior to WW1, unless there is a specific need for them.

The government order to carry-all on the railways was in force by 1900, and so a vast array of diverse items would in fact have to be carried - in open/ sheeted wagons it seems, by the statistics, at least on the Midland.

 

Any idea when the covered livestock van first appeared on our railways?

[asmay2002]

Any idea when the covered livestock van first appeared on our railways?

 

The Midland was putting roofs on its cattle wagons by 1861.

 

Andy May

[Pennine MC]

Pennine MC that is a fine Tom Petty track you quote from. Freefalling I think.

'Tis indeed Chris, its lyrics assumed more prominence on a recent visit to LA

[Kenton]

The Midland was putting roofs on its cattle wagons by 1861.

 

Andy May

I think the GWR beat them or came close - but the first purpose built batch of cattle wagons was 1869 after that they came with some regularity through the rest of the century up to WW1. Despite the introduction of refrigerated vans in the late 1870's notably for the transportation of meat imported "on the hoof" into Birkenhead slaughtered and then transported to London, it was still more normal to transport cattle over fairly long distances to abattoirs at or near their their final point of consumption. Refrigeration of meat was still expensive by comparison and novel refrigeration only came about in 1874 thanks to an invention by Capt. George Acklom, until then it was shovel on the ice and hope it didn't melt. The GWR introduced some adapted covered vans in the 1860's but they were largely experimental it was not until the late 1870's that their design became standard and even then production didn't start apace until the following decade. Fruit vans were relative latecomers in 1890. So we can see a progression of designs adapted for new goods opportunities.

 

We have to remember times and transportation were very much different then. Commodities we now take for granted and even were common later in the century were very rare. The movement of goods such as coal and stone was the prime use of the railways, and even then often only from source to the nearest port. In the very early days of the railway many common goods including coal and stone, were transported by barge and ship rather than a tortuous route often involving different railway companies. It was only in the last 2 decades of that century that such goods were transported commonly by rail as the rail network became more complete and running large goods trains longer distances became more reliable and cheap. In fact about the time covered vans started to become more common.

 

This increasing use of vans for general goods would probably have continued but for the competition of roads, steadily improving from the start of the 20th century, the reliability and all round convenience of lorries and the relative decrease in the cost and effectiveness of fuels. Throughout the 20th century the transportation of coal for its own use (mine to rail, rail to rail), for domestic use (mine to rail) and gas production/power station (mine to plant) was the prime purpose of goods traffic on the railways and something it could do far more efficiently than by road. So no surprise that so many open wagons predominated.

[The Stationmaster]

Albeit not Midland but it is interesting to compare the GWR's May 1866 Service Timetable with some of the comments above.

 

There was an 'empty cattle trucks' (only) train from Paddington on Wednesday and Saturdays. The 10.20 pm (narrow gauge) goods from Paddingtopn to Manchester ran daily as did the 11.35 pm 'Express Irish Goods' from Paddington to New Milford (arriving 5.20 p.m). Similarly coal and coal empties were running over quite long distances such at the 7.10 a.m Paddington - Neath (arrive 11.45 p.m!) while the 5.30 p.m Paddington to Aberdare coal empties ran via Oxford, Worcester, Hereford and (of course) Pontypool Road being allowed 17 hours for its journey. Equally fascinating was what appears to have been a 'company train' conveying coal for Nixons and running as required from Mountain Ash, depart 4.00 a.m, to Birkenhead, arrive 4.50 p.m.

 

An interesting feature of traffic at that time is reference to trains conveying (as part of their load) salt or salt empties - usually in the same trains as coal traffic. Similarly some (goods) trains are noted as conveying 'gunpowder vans'.

 

It's clear from the timetable that by 1866 - if not earlier - long distance goods and mineral train operation was well established on the GWR's main routes in quite a sophisticated manner albeit with low end-to-end journey times of course.