Departmental Coaching Stock Livery 1960's

[Wheeltapper]

Its a long time ago but towards the end of steam on BR I seem to remember that most engineers coaches and tool vans that I saw on Western Region that were used on breakdown trains , tunnel maintenance trains or for general engineering work seemed to be painted in a matt pink livery. Of course it may have been that they had originally been painted maroon that had faded badly due lack of maintenance.

.

I want to create an engineers train for my 1960 period layout and wonder if anyone can tell me the exact colour used and if its available from any of the modellers paint suppliers or whether you have to mix it yourself . Also was it a matt or gloss finish ?

 

Any help appreciated.

['CHARD]

Is this the enigmatic colour once so beloved of the Engineers, that rejoices in the name Gulf Red? We have discussed it before in the context of wagons, and it was considered a bit of a rarity by all accounts, so I can't help but wonder if tool vans and their ilk were actually painted Signal Red, maybe?

[Pennine MC]

... I can't help but wonder if tool vans and their ilk were actually painted Signal Red, maybe?

 

Wasnt there a specific breakdown crane red? ISTR the Botanic Gardens crane and vans etc carrying red into the 70s.

[coachmann]

They just looked red to me. Probably someone said, paint 'em red instead of black, and so readily available paint from stores such as signal red or bufferbeam red was slapped on them.....

[edcayton]

ISTR a mix of red, black and olive green, but that is probably late 60's and into the 70's.

 

Ed

['CHARD]

Wasnt there a specific breakdown crane red? ISTR the Botanic Gardens crane and vans etc carrying red into the 70s.

 

As popularised by things like the Hornby crane and its booked power, Lord Westwood

 

That's what I was driving at with Signal Red I think (Humbrol on the brain) - when faded it was a definite pinky hue, a decidedly non-colour-fast scheme it was!

[The Stationmaster]

In our (Western) neck of the woods breakdown train vehicles in the 1960s were painted red - but it weren't arf faded on a lot of them (and going out on some of the vans could be a way of getting a ride on genuine GWR 'American' bogies, and very nice too at 60-70 mph B) ).

[Guest stuartp]

Don't forget breakdown trains were owned by the Motive Power Dept, not the Civil (or S&T) Engineer. Breakdown cranes and their associated riding and tool vans were painted bright* red from 1960ish when the new Cowans Sheldon 75 ton cranes were delivered in red.

 

Ballast cleaners, permanent way cranes, track relayers and the like also had staff riding vans, which should have followed the civils' black/gulf red/olive drab scheme.

 

Having said that, there are plenty of exceptions if the captions in the various wagon books are anything to go by, and some stock taken over unmodified from traffic use may not have been repainted at all.

 

* Signal Red, Post Office Red, scarlet, vermillion, haven't a clue. Humbrol 19 looks ok to me.

[Wheeltapper]

Thanks for your input chaps .

 

Consensus seems to suggest go with Signal Red but fade or tone it down considerably to a faded pink as there doesnt seem to be any hard and fast rule as is so often the case in these sort of circumstances.

[hmrspaul]

Don't forget breakdown trains were owned by the Motive Power Dept, not the Civil (or S&T) Engineer. Breakdown cranes and their associated riding and tool vans were painted bright* red from 1960ish when the new Cowans Sheldon 75 ton cranes were delivered in red.

 

Ballast cleaners, permanent way cranes, track relayers and the like also had staff riding vans, which should have followed the civils' black/gulf red/olive drab scheme.

 

Having said that, there are plenty of exceptions if the captions in the various wagon books are anything to go by, and some stock taken over unmodified from traffic use may not have been repainted at all.

 

* Signal Red, Post Office Red, scarlet, vermillion, haven't a clue. Humbrol 19 looks ok to me.

 

Yes all correct, * the official description is red enamel.

 

Paul Bartlett

[swhite01]

I saw this pic over the weekend, it includes a small view of the Hitchin Tool Van in a nice shade of faded Red http://grahame910.fotopic.net/p62187743.html

 

Hope of interest,

 

Steve w

[dibber25]

We covered the 'why?' of red livery for breakdowhn trains in Steam World back in the early 1990s. The change came about (slowly) because breakdown trains were initially painted black in early BR days and riding vans were the worst of ancient coaches and vans. Breakdown crews were volunteers and it became difficult to recruit and retain the teams, partly because the conditions were so awful. The use of bright red was an attempt to brighten the trains up and it generally accompanied other improvements with new cranes, new(er) riding vans and so on.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Gilbert]

So how close to "red" is "gulf red" - can anyone comment? - I've a Cambrian Catfish ballast hopper waiting for spraying and I've stalled after the red oxide primer - if ordinary "red" is OK I'll run with the colour I use for my Canadain Pacific locos (Action Red I think it's called)

Thanks

Chris

[rorz101uk]

can anyone tell me when olive green start being used? was it after 1965?

[Caledonian]

Don't know about the olive green, but this question of "what shade" is always one that makes me groan a bit. Aside from the straighforward business of colour perception, ie; the difference in appearance between the same paint applied to different scales, none of it seems to have lasted well in the real world. Bauxite being a good example and best described as vaguely brownish with a stern injunction to ensure that no two wagons are quite the same.

 

Anything to do with red seems to have been particularly prone to fading. I do remember when I was much much younger, my Dad and I painted a whole boatyard using some bauxite paint he'd organised from somewhere. It went on as a beautiful rich shiny red russet and before the summer was out had faded to a dusty pink, so it wasn't a slow process.

 

As to the olive green, as slapped on to a shark by Mr Hornby its quite dark, but I have lurking around somewhere a photo of the Kyle with a departmental Gresley in the background displaying what can only be described as a bilious yellowish shade of green

[hmrspaul]

 

Anything to do with red seems to have been particularly prone to fading. I do remember when I was much much younger, my Dad and I painted a whole boatyard using some bauxite paint he'd organised from somewhere. It went on as a beautiful rich shiny red russet and before the summer was out had faded to a dusty pink, so it wasn't a slow process.

 

I agree with all your sentiments EXCEPT for the breakdown cranes and associated stock. The ex freight stock would fade from red enamel, but the ex passenger stock and cranes were varnished, and there are plenty of photographs in many magazines of filthy MPDs, filthier locomotives and bright and shiny breakdown vehicles - which was where they were stored. Look at how well preserved the red is on many of these http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/c359991.html years after yellow replaced the red for breakdown train vehicles.

 

Olive green replaced gulf red (quite a different colour, discussed extensively on RMWeb) during 1963. But, as we have discussed before, some new vehicles appear to be black, or nearly black, years later - such as this Whale http://gallery6801.fotopic.net/p2122482.html

 

Paul Bartlett

[edward66]

In 1959 or maybe 1960 the signal box at Caton, 5 miles east of Lancaster on the Little Northwestern, burned down. Several coaches were parked in a siding as mess van, tool van and possibly overnight accommodation [not certain about that]during the rebuilding and to the best of my recollection they were black. I have a very poor b&w photograph of one of them taken with my Kodak Brownie 127 and its number is possibly DM 3933817 or 017 with S & T followed by an illegible place name underneath the running number. I can't identify the coach I'm afraid but it's obviously pretty old. I presume S & T is signalling and telegraph.

 

Edward

[andyrush]

I worked on the S&T in the Kings Cross area at various locations in 1963 and the gang I was with had a personal tool van/workshop/mess coach which followed us around. It was a converted Gresley brake third [?] and was black, as were the other similar tool/mess coaches stationed at Finsbury Park. Attached is a fairly grotty Brownie 127 view of it at Oakleigh Park.

 

Andy