Bluebird

[scots region]

Hello all, this is another musing and it is to anyone who owns one of Heljans superb 'HS 4000 Kestrel'.

 

As is fact 'Kestrel' was completed in 1967 by Brush, as works No 711 as a prototype for a BR specification, for a Type 5 3000BHP+ Co-Co Locomotive capable of Heavy freight and express passenger up to MPH. However BR didn't take the bait, preferring to invest in the HST and later APT, with BR out for the count and no takers form the export market, Brush sold the Loco in 1971 to Russia where it remained in near original condition until scraping in 1993. But what if...?

 

I've always wondered how this fascinating prototype's story would have been different if it had gone the way of another famous prototype 'Falcon', if BR had bought 'Kestrel' but never developed her, keeping the loco, say on the ECML for secondary duties and as a standby for Deltic failures, has anyone ever thought likewise? or even modelled one for this possibility? I can just imagine it in full BR blue with yellow ends and red cast nameplates. do comment.

 

Edit 08/09/10

 

Hows this for a back story? In June of 1971 HS4000 visited Vickers Armstrong for engine overhaul, whilst there Brush Traction entertained a group of USSR representatives interested in purchasing HS4000, however upon inspection of the Locomotive the representative’s deemed the Loco “Not suitable for our purposes†for the following reasons:

 

· Due to differences in the British and USSR loading gauges the cab windows were too low for signals to be seen by the driver and would present a safety hazard

 

· The passages were too narrow, which would make in difficult to facilitate crew changes while in motion

 

· The Bogies were overly large, again a hazard to anyone waking along the track when the HS4000 passed

 

· The engine arrangement would present difficulties.

 

· The stressed skin construction would be susceptible to corrosion, even more so given the USSR’s more intense climate

 

As a result the USSR withdrew interest, with no other offers, Brush agreed to sell HS4000 to BR on a ‘contract’ agreement; when BR could not find further use for the loco it would be returned to Brush.

 

HS4000 was outshoped from Loughborough in December 1971 modified for work over the ECML, and painted in full BR blue and numbered 51XXX; special attention was given to preserve its KESTREL lettering, 51000 was then put to work as a standby for Deltic and HST failures and two daily coal trips, working out of that most halloed home of the Deltics, Finsbury Park. It would continue in this fashion through intercity until withdraw and preservation in 1993.

[scots region]

There was perhaps a void that Kestrel could have filled had the situation been different at the time and could perhaps well justify a "what if" scenario persued by modellers. This was the destruction of DP2 (sometimes known as the 23rd. Deltic) in the Thirsk accident in 1967.

 

 

Interesting point, so the idea is plausible?

[Bloodnok]

Interesting point, so the idea is plausible?

 

Certainly plausible.

 

Kestrel easily met Deltic timings when tested on the ECML - despite having less power at the rail available than intended due to the Class 47 bogies she was wearing at the time.

 

The issue BR had with Kestrel was weight. She was a clear 10 tons over what BR had specified for the design, and a massive 34 tons heavier than a Deltic.

 

And the Hither Green crash (attributed in part to excessive axle loading) which happened about the same time as Kestrel was completed led BR to want to reduce weight and axle loads wherever possible.

 

Fitting the Class 47 bogies had shaved about 5 tons off the weight - halfway to bringing her back to what BR had specified. It should have been possible, with the removal of some extraneous and experimental systems, to bring the weight down to BR's original target - but not down to the level of a Deltic. (My thoughts would be to start with hacking out the steam heating boiler and the dynamic brake). This would probably entail plating over the fans and grilles for the dynamic brake, so you'd have some obvious external differences to model too...

 

 

Another interesting 'whatif' for Kestrel concerns freight. The high weight wasn't a problem for coal drags - in fact, it was an asset. Their problem at the time was that the sidings weren't long enough to contain trains that would exercise all of Kestrel's ability. It wasn't long before there was a serious lack of big freight power, and BR went back to Brush for similar locos - which was the order for Class 56s. What if the freight side of BR had anticipated this, and held on to Kestrel, or even ordered a few more the same?

[scots region]

Certainly plausible.

 

Kestrel easily met Deltic timings when tested on the ECML - despite having less power at the rail available than intended due to the Class 47 bogies she was wearing at the time.

 

The issue BR had with Kestrel was weight. She was a clear 10 tons over what BR had specified for the design, and a massive 34 tons heavier than a Deltic.

 

And the Hither Green crash (attributed in part to excessive axle loading) which happened about the same time as Kestrel was completed led BR to want to reduce weight and axle loads wherever possible.

 

Fitting the Class 47 bogies had shaved about 5 tons off the weight - halfway to bringing her back to what BR had specified. It should have been possible, with the removal of some extraneous and experimental systems, to bring the weight down to BR's original target - but not down to the level of a Deltic. (My thoughts would be to start with hacking out the steam heating boiler and the dynamic brake). This would probably entail plating over the fans and grilles for the dynamic brake, so you'd have some obvious external differences to model too...

 

 

Another interesting 'whatif' for Kestrel concerns freight. The high weight wasn't a problem for coal drags - in fact, it was an asset. Their problem at the time was that the sidings weren't long enough to contain trains that would exercise all of Kestrel's ability. It wasn't long before there was a serious lack of big freight power, and BR went back to Brush for similar locos - which was the order for Class 56s. What if the freight side of BR had anticipated this, and held on to Kestrel, or even ordered a few more the same?

 

 

so it [Kestrel] could easily have rubbed shoulders with Deltics or 56s, has anyone ever modelled one like this? or photoshoped an image of it to look like what I envisage?

 

on the subject of a Kestrel "class" could I interest anyone in helping with a class list as a side topic?

['CHARD]

I expect you mean something like this:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/blog/217/entry-506-blue-kestrel

[scots region]

I expect you mean something like this:

http://www.rmweb.co....06-blue-kestrel

 

 

yes, definetly along the lines of what I was thinking, but the yellow buffer beams just don't do it for me, better black. thanks for the help.

['CHARD]

yes, definetly along the lines of what I was thinking, but the yellow buffer beams just don't do it for me, better black. thanks for the help.

Trust me, I nearly had to resort to Class A to get through that project, hypothetical exercise in Corporate Blue such as it was. Plenty of elements in the livery are awkward, but if you read the accompanying text I explain the particular/ peculiar logic path I took to reach the finished article

[coachmann]

There have been a number of one-off on British metals and all suffered a similar fate because of the expence of carrying spares for just one loco.

 

A earlier senario might be how British diesels might have developed had there been dollars for oil available after Nationalisation. Would there have been a class of LMS twins and SR trio's? Or would common sense have dictated we buy well-tried North America products with cut-down versions of E-Units, GP7's and SD9's on BR?

 

Bluebirds or Eagles?

[scots region]

Trust me, I nearly had to resort to Class A to get through that project, hypothetical exercise in Corporate Blue such as it was. Plenty of elements in the livery are awkward, but if you read the accompanying text I explain the particular/ peculiar logic path I took to reach the finished article

 

 

sorry didn't mean to criticize, its not that its a bad project, it just its not what I have in my mind, yours is great but its not my idea.

['CHARD]

sorry didn't mean to criticize, its not that its a bad project, it just its not what I have in my mind, yours is great but its not my idea.

 

Hehehe! Not taken in that way in the slightest mate. I bought the body in error - thought I'd ordered Falcon

Then Heljan announced theirs, so I thought I'd try and apply the Corporate Identity Manual to her and create a backstory, knew competing with the fidelity of the RTR would be futile.

 

All huge fun. Loadhaul and InterCity Swallow were also considered but that's just how it went. Subsequently sold on to a new owner.

[scots region]

There have been a number of one-off on British metals and all suffered a similar fate because of the expence of carrying spares for just one loco.

 

A earlier senario might be how British diesels might have developed had there been dollars for oil available after Nationalisation. Would there have been a class of LMS twins and SR trio's? Or would common sense have dictated we buy well-tried North America products with cut-down versions of E-Units, GP7's and SD9's on BR?

 

Bluebirds or Eagles?

 

 

Not that I don't appreciate extra debate, but lets keep it about the subject in question, which is: is the concept of a BR blue HS4000 viable (established). now I'm interested to know how a back could be spun.

 

I do actually find the idea of Deltic's in Amtrak's and the Manhattan suburbs quaking to the roar of a Napier very interesting, as well as the idea of the 59 not being the first North American product on British soil.

[Bloodnok]

Not that I don't appreciate extra debate, but lets keep it about the subject in question, which is: is the concept of a BR blue HS4000 viable (established). now I'm interested to know how a back could be spun.

 

I do actually find the idea of Deltic's in Amtrak's and the Manhattan suburbs quaking to the roar of a Napier very interesting, as well as the idea of the 59 not being the first North American product on British soil.

 

I did once read somewhere on this here internet that one company (can't remember who) got a license to make locos for the British market derived from EMD designs. So the story went, this was unfortunately too late for any orders to come from BR, as the orders for Brush 4s (class 47s) had already gone out. I wonder a.) what company it was, and b.) what would have happened had that agreement been obtained sooner?

 

Two possible outcomes to this spring to mind. If the timing of the agreement was brought into the lion/falcon timeframe, the loco produced would still have been very British in appearance - there were strict style guidelines issued by the BRB, specifying two front windows and no projecting nose, for example. Consider the OBB 2050 - mechanically and electrically, it's a GM product (IIRC a G12?), but you wouldn't tell from looking at the outside of it. But bring it back significantly further, and we could have seen a very different looking loco. Consider how the warship was shrunk from the V200 - and now do the same from the starting point of a NOHAB or Victorian Railways B class (both types built by EMD licensees, retaining the F unit style nose, but with cabs both ends and 3 axle bogies).

[Bloodnok]

All huge fun. Loadhaul and InterCity Swallow were also considered but that's just how it went. Subsequently sold on to a new owner.

 

With the cab shape kestrel has, anything that changes at the "corner" like the corporate livery did is going to be problematic - but anything that wraps around the cabside is going to work a hell of a lot better.

 

Small yellow panels will work. Large logo would suit her very well. I'd love to see a red stripe railfreight version with red buffer surrounds - that would look the danglies. InterCity would work too - at least the earlier versions with yellow on the cab sides. And loadhaul is one of those magic liveries that seems to work on anything, so I'm in no doubt it would work just fine here too.

 

As a one-off brought into BR ownership, I think your rendition is pretty good - where to put the join on the lower cab side is probably the main issue. Another option to consider would have been to cut the yellow down from the corner of the side window. If I paint one in Blue/Grey, then I'm going to try it here, and see how it looks.

 

As a whole class, then the livery may well have been designed to better suit the loco - and we possibly could have seen the preserving of the 'yellow panel' style for these locos, or a full cab yellow much earlier. There are also other possibilities to consider - something inspired by the Blue Pullman livery, or the prototype or production HST liveries...

[griffgriff]

There was perhaps a void that Kestrel could have filled had the situation been different at the time and could perhaps well justify a "what if" scenario persued by modellers. This was the destruction of DP2 (sometimes known as the 23rd. Deltic) in the Thirsk accident in 1967.

 

English Electric algebra...

 

55 + 1 = 23??? nope that can't be right...

 

No surely 50 - 1 = DP2???

[scots region]

Hello all, quick news I'm back. Right on to business, Does anyone know of any title's containing colour photographs of KESTREL to help with painting? Also what modifications would be needed to bring this beasty up to passenger standards? finally has anyone got any ideas about names for a class of KESTREL's or a back story to them?

 

I apologize for the briskness of this entry. And for my fairly rantish blog post which I have since deleted, and if I have caused any upsets due to this. I don't have the time or the energy required to provide a full explanation but sufficient to say I was so fed up with computers and my on going ablity to througly b####r the things up, I was in the mood to tell my parents that my PC had suffered an unfortunate incounter with an eighteen wheel lorry. I am planing a slightly minor(ish) change of plan in regards to the layout.

 

With that I humberly present myself for whatever thrashing I am due.

 

Cheers

ScR

[multiprinter]

Of course it might have been transferred to Ebbw Junction to see out its days with D1200.

[scots region]

Of course it might have been transferred to Ebbw Junction to see out its days with D1200.

 

 

The chance of a D1200 and HS4000 working, interesting. any Ideas where I might get some photos of HS4000?

[multiprinter]

any Ideas where I might get some photos of HS4000?

 

Plenty of links come up if you put HS4000 in google

[Flying Pig]

The revival of this thread caused me to look again at Chard's painstakingly researched and neatly executed yet sadly rather repellent (sorry) banger blue Kestral. I wondered if some enterprising soul mightn't have carelessly lost the Corporate manual and sneaked the blue bird into the paint shop with a batch of HST power cars. These were the result. Sorry for the crudeness - I created them as overlays for the drawing at the bottom of this page which I'm not reproducing for copyright reasons. If anyone feels like having a go at a spare Heljan Kestril, the horizontal break is supposed to be at the same height as in the prototype livery.

 

[Guest Belgian]

finally has anyone got any ideas about names for a class of KESTREL's or a back story to them?

Since you're postulating the use of 'Kestrel' on the ECML alongside Deltics, perhaps the bird theme should be expanded. It would be most appropriate as the Deltics' forerunners were the Gresley A4 streamliners and they were named after birds so it would be very much in ECML tradition. After all, the Deltics were named after regiments or racehorses, following on from the equally-famous A3 and V2 namimg policy, and, of course, Peppercorn A1 60130 was 'Kestrel' anyway!

 

JE

[scots region]

The revival of this thread caused me to look again at Chard's painstakingly researched and neatly executed yet sadly rather repellent (sorry) banger blue Kestral. I wondered if some enterprising soul mightn't have carelessly lost the Corporate manual and sneaked the blue bird into the paint shop with a batch of HST power cars. These were the result. Sorry for the crudeness - I created them as overlays for the drawing at the bottom of this page which I'm not reproducing for copyright reasons. If anyone feels like having a go at a spare Heljan Kestril, the horizontal break is supposed to be at the same height as in the prototype livery.

 

 

 

OOh now I'm sorely tempted to dictch the simple blue and yellow ends combination. That is fantastic, question would red buffer beams match?

[Flying Pig]

Personally, I don't think so. This is still the corporate blue era despite the slightly non-standard livery. Things got silly later of course.

 

[Horsetan]

Slight OT, I know, but when I saw the title of this topic, I did wonder whether it was about Donald Campbell's ill-fated speed record attempt, or something about a Nissan saloon car....

[Flying Pig]

And finally, Executive, still with elements of the HST treatment:

 

 

Horsetan - or toffees

[scots region]

Personally, I don't think so. This is still the corporate blue era despite the slightly non-standard livery. Things got silly later of course.

 

 

 

Perhaps an escapee from the silver jubilee