Never saw this in Southampton High Street

[melmerby]

Keith

 

Main Street would have grown up either side of the tracks hence the result tracks down the middle. So buildings either side of the track and as the vehicles changed from stagecoach/horses to cars the tarmac would have been added.

 

Colin

 

I suppose another reason is that in the UK for a long time the railway has been fenced off as a separate right of way, which isn't the case in the US.

 

Looking at the You Tube videos it makes you wonder how many accidents they have.

If it was the UK you would get "yoofs" in GTs doing handbrake turns in front of the locos to show how clever they are!

 

Keith

[Foulounoux]

I suppose another reason is that in the UK for a long time the railway has been fenced off as a separate right of way, which isn't the case in the US.

 

 

 

Keith

 

But also in Europe the towns and cities developed prior to the railway, hence the railway placed where it cant do any harm, also landowners and influential bodies like the colleges in cambridge forcing the railway to the edge of the town. Whereas in the US as was stated earlier the railroad was often the catalyst for developing a town and thus found itself right in the middle of things.

 

Colin

[298]

Another reason was it avoided the Railroad having to buy a designated right-of-way through the town, or where a City Streetcar line expanded and through freight was carried on the system from industries to the interchange yard.

 

But despite the interest, Street Running only ever represented a tiny proportion of the total trackage, and the remaining mileage is either being closed through the tracks being diverted or complete line closures. Even Jack London Square isn't proper Street Running, as the tracks are within the yellow meridian lines. It's still worth the short ferry hop from San Francisco if you're ever in the area.

[jamie92208]

Yes JacK London Square in Oakland is well worth a visit here are a couple of photos from my visit in January.

 

As the post above says the actual main running tracks have yellow lines along them but the road surface is pretty ropey as the next picture shows.

I spent about 2 hours there before going to ride trams round San Fransisco one Sunday and saw about 8 trains in that time but unfortuantely no long freights which would have looked great.

 

Jamie

[PhilH]

Is it the fact of the yellow meridian lines, ie not proper street running, the reason that they can do more than 10mph in JL Square?

[Fat Controller]

Another reason was it avoided the Railroad having to buy a designated right-of-way through the town, or where a City Streetcar line expanded and through freight was carried on the system from industries to the interchange yard.

 

But despite the interest, Street Running only ever represented a tiny proportion of the total trackage, and the remaining mileage is either being closed through the tracks being diverted or complete line closures. Even Jack London Square isn't proper Street Running, as the tracks are within the yellow meridian lines. It's still worth the short ferry hop from San Francisco if you're ever in the area.

Over a large part of the States, the railways were given land grants (ISTR a mile either side of their route) by the government during the 19th century to encourage them to built new routes. Thus the railways encouraged urban development as close as possible to the railway in order to squeeze in as many possible tenants/customers as possible. Originally, the railway would have had dirt-tracks and boardwalks on either side- the asphalt came much more recently.

[jamie92208]

Over a large part of the States, the railways were given land grants (ISTR a mile either side of their route) by the government during the 19th century to encourage them to built new routes. Thus the railways encouraged urban development as close as possible to the railway in order to squeeze in as many possible tenants/customers as possible. Originally, the railway would have had dirt-tracks and boardwalks on either side- the asphalt came much more recently.

 

The Land Grants were anything up to 40 mile long strips on alternate sides of the track. The railroads often kept ownership of 400' width along the right of way and still own vast tracts of land in some of the wilder places. I believe that BNSF lost as square mile of their land when Mount St helen's exploded as they owned it. UP certainly made a lot of money in the 30's alowing the Lincoln Highway (US30) to be built on their land along large parts of the main line, Often they would build through an existing settlement then put their depot on the next plot that they owned to make more money from selling land. There were allegations that some of the lines were built with uneccessary curves in them as they were in effect being paid by the mile. Certainly a lot of the UP line in Wyoming had a lot of excess mileage taken out of it in the early 1900's when Harriman rebuilt it.

 

Jamie

[jamie92208]

Is it the fact of the yellow meridian lines, ie not proper street running, the reason that they can do more than 10mph in JL Square?

 

I don't know. Certainly all the pasenger trains I saw on that bit of street were going fairly slowly. I will try and check in the timetable that I got at Rosevill the day before. An interesting adjunct in the employee timetables that I got goven by some UP crews, was that crews were on no account to accept speeding tickets issued by local law enforcement officers, reading betwen the lines some smaller police departments try to ticket trains to raise revenue. There are several paragraphs of instructions there.

[melmerby]

An interesting adjunct in the employee timetables that I got goven by some UP crews, was that crews were on no account to accept speeding tickets issued by local law enforcement officers, reading betwen the lines some smaller police departments try to ticket trains to raise revenue. There are several paragraphs of instructions there.

 

Surely if the Railroad owns the trackbed it cannot be classed as part of the highway and therefore is outside the jurisdiction of the local cops?

 

I notice in the shots of Jack London square that there seems to be three tracks one of which is OOU and disconnected. Are the other two for freight and passenger respectively? The track layout at the station suggests that.

 

In the UK I understand that tram tracks were never part of the public highway and it was the responsibility of the tram company to maintain that area. That would explain why trams don't (didn't) have licence plates whilst trolley buses on the same route which wandered onto the normal part of the road did.

 

 

Keith

[jamie92208]

The issue of local cops trying to ticket trains is obviously an issue as it was in both the BNSF and UP employee timetables. I suspect that this might also apply to tickets for obstruction at level crossings. It is pretty hard to ignore a US police officer if they want to speak to you with the various hardware they carry.

 

As to Jack London Square the third track is OOU but I'm not sure about the passenger / freight split as I didn't see any freight. However having looked through some of my other pics this one seems to confirm your theory.

 

There are no platforms on the right hand track though both tracks are bi directionally signalled.

 

I will have to dig through my glory hole and find the timetables and see if they say anything. UP signals and controls the tracks though the trains are run by Amtrak California.

 

Jamie

PS behind where I was sitting there wasa very good bookstore and coffee shop, my friends and I had a very good time w3atching the world go by before Dave and I caught the BART to go tram riding and Sally went home, and it was a lot warmer than the UK was in the first week in January.

[PhilH]

Can't believe the state of the road surface around the track.

[298]

Left track is Amtrak (Jack London Square station can be seen in the background), middle one is for freight, and as noted the right one is out of use. There are some videos showing parallel moves along the street.

 

Warm in January...? I didn't think the bay area did anything but winter....

[trisonic]

 

 

Warm in January...? I didn't think the bay area did anything but winter....

 

 

 

Compared to the UK I guess.....It looks like they are either doing work or preparing to, some parts of the roadway seem to be in pretty good condition.

 

Best, Pete.

[jamie92208]

The decent roadway was the bit that the buses and cars were using at the sides however watching the traffic going across the street it did pitch up and down a bit.

 

I've just looked at the timetable and the speed limits on both main tracks on this stretch are 25mph passenger (Including the turn outs at Jack London Square station) and 15 mph freight . Just south of the station, at a place called Strong, the limit goes up to 79mph for passengers and 60 for freight. (Info courtesy of some helpful UP staff at Roseville the day before.)

 

As to the weather the central valley from bakersfield up to Roseville was cold and I was glad that I'd got one lot of cold weather clothing with me as I had left manchester in late December. The Sunday was pleasantly warm in Oakland and LA was certainly warm enough for shirtsleeves most of the time but It got down into the low 40's Farenheight at Bakersfield and the fog didn't clear till nearly midday.

 

The street running was impressive, I just wished I'd seen a freight.

 

Jamie

[Bigboy]

ISTR that the Glasgow tramways were to a slightly odd gauge so that SG rolling stock would run in the fairly shallow tramway groove on their flanges. I don't know whether this was to allow goods into the yards and factories or to move completet locos to the docks.

 

The only piece of streetrunning on the tram lines IIRC was a short distance from a B.R. goods yard a matter of a few hundred yards into Fairfields Shipyard on the South bank of the Clyde. This was to enable steel and other supplies to be delivered. The service was powered by a small BoBo electric locomotive owned by Fairfields and obtaining its power from the tramway overhead wire via a standard tram type bow collector.

 

When the tram system closed the short length of rails were left in place and the single tram overhead wire was replaced by a pair of wires as the route had been converted to trolleybus operation. The locomotive was altered by fitting two trolley poles to enable it to pick up and return current from the new wires. No other modification was needed as the trams and trolleybuses operated on the same voltage.

The locomotive is preserved in the Scottish Railway Museum at the SRPS site at Bo'ness.

 

No other premises were served.

 

It is quite impossible to run a large locomotive for any practical distance on a tram line due to the sharp curves involved both horizontally and even (relatively) vertically. In fact several Glasgow tram routes were barred to the larger trams due to this.

 

Locomotives built for export by the North British Locomotive Company at their several works in the city were hauled through the streets on low loaders hauled by two or more traction engines,(steam powered and solid tyred for many years) to be lifted aboard ship by the famous Finnieston Quay cane.

Even this operation was somewhat laborious due to the difficulties involved in negotiating the streets and was usually conducted 'after hours' when normal traffic had virtually ceased.

 

This crane still exists, preserved on its original location just beside the newish Scottish Exhibition and Conference Centre which was built on land reclaimed by filling in the dock.

 

BTW the crane will be familiar to owners of the No.10 Meccanno set as it could be buit from it.

 

Hope this helps

 

Alex

[pH]

The only piece of streetrunning on the tram lines IIRC was a short distance from a B.R. goods yard a matter of a few hundred yards into Fairfields Shipyard on the South bank of the Clyde. This was to enable steel and other supplies to be delivered. The service was powered by a small BoBo electric locomotive owned by Fairfields and obtaining its power from the tramway overhead wire via a standard tram type bow collector.

 

When the tram system closed the short length of rails were left in place and the single tram overhead wire was replaced by a pair of wires as the route had been converted to trolleybus operation. The locomotive was altered by fitting two trolley poles to enable it to pick up and return current from the new wires. No other modification was needed as the trams and trolleybuses operated on the same voltage.

The locomotive is preserved in the Scottish Railway Museum at the SRPS site at Bo'ness.

 

No other premises were served.

In addition to this, there was a bit of street running on tram tracks further west on Govan Road, connecting Alexander Stephen's yard to Shieldhall goods yard. There's a picture of a Barclay belonging to the shipyard passing a Cunarder tram on this section on page 30 of "An Illustrated History of Glasgow's Railways" by WAC Smith and Paul Anderson. Apparently, the tracks remained in place for shipyard traffic for several years after the last trams ran on them. I have a very vague memory of passing a steam engine while travelling in a tram along Govan Road in the early 1950s.

[jamie92208]

Glasgow was one of I think 3 towns that built it's tramways to 4' 7 3/4" gauge to allow through running. The other two were Huddersfield and I think Portsmouth.

 

Huddersfield never had a connection but did run it's own coal tram which looked like a standard 7 plank wagion with a trolley pole in the middle and a small pltfrom with controllers at each end (Alphagraphix do a model of it). This ran from the coal drops next to the LNWR line to 3 mills which had connections of the troute to Outlane. this route was the highest in England and it's terminus was near junction 24 of the M62 with a short extension from the passenger terminus into the mill.

The loading tracks are still visible in a yard used for motorcycle training alongside the coal cells below the main line.

 

There was street running in Huddersfield from the Midland's Newtown goods yard to the gasworks on Leeds Road. This ran down Beaumont Street and crossed some tram routes but there was no connection. 2 small tank engines used to ahul what was known as the Beaumont street flyer. This continued until the gas works closed in the mid 60's.

 

Jamie

[BR60103]

Jamie: we spent the first half of January in San Francisco, too.

They kept quoting Mark Twain: "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco."

We bought a couple of nice warm jackets and hats while we were there.

[jamie92208]

Jamie: we spent the first half of January in San Francisco, too.

They kept quoting Mark Twain: "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco."

We bought a couple of nice warm jackets and hats while we were there.

 

Yes I went out to spend a week in El Salvador on a charity project which we support and as I was changing planes at LAX on the way back got permission from SWMBO to spend 6 days trainspotting in Califormia. I was surprised by two things,

1. How cold it was when it was misty.

2. How early it got dark.

 

I managed to keep warm thanks to the clothes that I had worn to go to Manchester Airport, in the snow, and solved the light problem by getting up at 5.30 and going to bed early.

 

As a complete aside here is some El Salvador street running.

 

This is the main line to Gautemala, mothballed since 2002 when the whole system was closed down. At this point it crosses a dual carriageway and one rail is faintly visible. It is used as access to the shanties built alongside the track.

 

 

This was what could almost be called street running on the small bit that was reopened for commuter traffic in the capital in 2007. The squatters have built right alongside the tracks and use it as access and car parking. A fascinating experience to ride it along with 4 heavily armed transport police carrying automatic rifles among other weapons.

 

Jamie

[Fat Controller]

Glasgow was one of I think 3 towns that built it's tramways to 4' 7 3/4" gauge to allow through running. The other two were Huddersfield and I think Portsmouth.

 

Huddersfield never had a connection but did run it's own coal tram which looked like a standard 7 plank wagion with a trolley pole in the middle and a small pltfrom with controllers at each end (Alphagraphix do a model of it). This ran from the coal drops next to the LNWR line to 3 mills which had connections of the troute to Outlane. this route was the highest in England and it's terminus was near junction 24 of the M62 with a short extension from the passenger terminus into the mill.

The loading tracks are still visible in a yard used for motorcycle training alongside the coal cells below the main line.

 

There was street running in Huddersfield from the Midland's Newtown goods yard to the gasworks on Leeds Road. This ran down Beaumont Street and crossed some tram routes but there was no connection. 2 small tank engines used to ahul what was known as the Beaumont street flyer. This continued until the gas works closed in the mid 60's.

 

Jamie

The Nevill's Dock Railway in Llanelli had both street-running (in the area around Bryn Terrace, south of the SWML) and reserved way running until the 1960s- the reserved-way route crossed the SWML on the level, then the Llanelli tram tracks, before ending at the gasworks just behind Murray Street. The last vestiges of the system, serving Batchelor Robinson's detinning works, remained in use as an internal railway system into the 1980s.

A recent book on the line features the pub my great-aunt used to keep (the Bryn Terrace Hotel) on the cover, in company with one of the line's steam locos.

[melmerby]

Another interesting line was the 3'6" gauge "Kinver Light Railway", part of the Dudley and Stourbridge tramway network (and hence the Birmingham and Black Country) which starts as a street tramway, moves to a roadside reservation and the ends up as a light railway running across fields on sleepered track to a country terminus with a station and sidings.

It operated an early morning "Milk Train" to Dudley. and had special cars for parcels and other goods.

 

I understand the system had closed by 1930.

 

Kinver was a popular destination in the summer and through tramcars would operate from all over the Black Country and Birmingham.

 

An interesting subject for a model?

[Bigboy]

In addition to this, there was a bit of street running on tram tracks further west on Govan Road, connecting Alexander Stephen's yard to Shieldhall goods yard. There's a picture of a Barclay belonging to the shipyard passing a Cunarder tram on this section on page 30 of "An Illustrated History of Glasgow's Railways" by WAC Smith and Paul Anderson. Apparently, the tracks remained in place for shipyard traffic for several years after the last trams ran on them. I have a very vague memory of passing a steam engine while travelling in a tram along Govan Road in the early 1950s.

 

Since my original post I have seen a DVD of "Glasgow's Trams and Trolleybuses" which shows this locomotive which is an 0-4-0 pannier tank in a very grimy livery which may be green. The loco is seen leaving the yard light engine, drawing onto the tram tracks and stopping in the middle of the road while the loco driver seems to be giving hand signals to the (very light) road traffic.

 

The Fairfield electric loco is also shown and, contrary to my first posting, is not a BoBo but merely a short wheelbase 4 wheeler. There is a very grainy b&w shot of a train of a 4 wheel and a bogie plate wagon being pulled round the sharp curve into Govan goods yard. The wagons seem to be separated by a greater than usual distance, possibly by special coupling chains, as the whole of the buffer heads between the wagons are visible. Also noteworthy is that no tail lamp is visible nor is there anyone closely accompanying the train on foot, though the track there is dead flat.

 

There is a third shot of street running, taken outside John Brown's shipyard in Clydebank, where their 0-4-0 fireless loco is briefly seen crossing the street and the tram tracks. It is not clear if the loco is running on conventional track buried in the road or on tram track. At a guess I would say conventional track.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Alex

[jamie92208]

There was also some freight service in Leeds but not from tracks connected to the main line network. Leeds Fireclay Ltd used the Leeds tramways to haul coal and fireclay on various routes in the city and when Leeds were buildiong a new set of water filter beds at Headingly they used a series of self proelled hopper trucks to carry many thousands of tons of sand from a wharf on the River Aire next to the Tramway PWay yard up Otley road to the filter beds which were not far from the terminus of the route to Lanswood. There was a special siding laid into the filter beds off the main route.

 

The hopper vehicles had two 10 ton hoppers with a a cenral control stand.

 

There is a short bit of video of the Leeds Fireclay operation on the Online video/DVD of Leeds trams which is still available. (Part of the profits from this are helping to pay for the restoration of Leeds horsecar 107) . I have got access to photos of the hoppers in operation and to a sketch of the Leeds Fireclay setup but need to ask permission from the copyright holder before posting.

 

The hoppers were later used for PWay work.

 

Jamie

[Swissrail]

How about a layout based on the Glasgow Tramway as it ran alongside the Clyde shipyards. Didn't they run goods trains along it?

 

Keith

 

 

The West of Scotland ScaleSeven group built a layout in 2002 with this very principle in mind. I built the tram engine and the trolleybus overhead that went with it. The layout was exhibited several times but it was demolished in 2009. The tram engine is now in my collection as a static model.

 

Alan McMillan

[Talltim]

Surely if the Railroad owns the trackbed it cannot be classed as part of the highway and therefore is outside the jurisdiction of the local cops?

 

I notice in the shots of Jack London square that there seems to be three tracks one of which is OOU and disconnected. Are the other two for freight and passenger respectively? The track layout at the station suggests that.

 

In the UK I understand that tram tracks were never part of the public highway and it was the responsibility of the tram company to maintain that area. That would explain why trams don't (didn't) have licence plates whilst trolley buses on the same route which wandered onto the normal part of the road did.

 

 

Keith

 

In Sheffield there are been issues with the track/road surface interface. The rail is supposed to be not more than a certain height above the troad surface, however the track is maintained by Supertram/SYPTE and the road surface by the council. This causes arguments as to whether the rail is too high or the road too low!